US laws for windfall apples for cider

[rlc...@gmail.com]

Hey all,

I have a buddy that owns an orchard but he's digging in his heals on the issue of windfall apples being against the law to use in any capacity. Last fall all of my apples were windfall. My cider turned out fine. I know windfall apples are perfectly acceptable in other countries. Wondering if there are any US laws detailing the use of windfalls.

Any feedback you may have would be awesome.

[Mike Beck]

Windfalls may not be used for fresh juice sales to the public unless it has been treated (pasteurized or other treatment)

New York state has some other rules as it regards to raw juice

That is it in a nutshell... if you pasteurize the dirt and poo it is cool to drink after that.

Mike beck
Saint Johns, Michigan

--
--
Visit our website: http://www.ciderworkshop.com

You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Cider Workshop" Google Group.
By joining the Cider Workshop, you agree to abide by our principles. Please see http://www.ciderworkshop.com/resources_principles.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Cider Workshop" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send an email to cider-w...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.


---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
http://www.avg.com

[Vince Wakefield]

Are we talking apple juice or alcoholic cider?

Vince

-----Original Message-----
From: cider-w...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cider-w...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of rlc...@gmail.com
Sent: 11 October 2017 18:26
To: Cider Workshop
Subject: [Cider Workshop] US laws for windfall apples for cider

[darlenehayes]

There was a presentation on this very subject at the orcharding session that took place before the start of the 2017 CiderCon in Chicago. The concern is Listeria. The US has a zero tolerance for Listeria in any food or drink. The presenter from the USDA basically said that anyone wanting to use windfalls in fermented cider needs to have a written plan in place for washing things and/or keeping any animal fecal material from the apples. And/or have a testing program in place where every batch of cider that uses windfalls that is released to the public is tested for the presence of Listeria and comes back negative. To be honest, I am paraphrasing and would have to either listen to the recording I made or dig out my notes from the session to be 100% about this, especially the and/ors but that is what I recall.

Darlene

[Duncan Hewitt]

Is this document relevant?

http://www.ciderassociation.org/resources/Pictures/Cider%20apple%20drop%20food%20safety%20(2)%20(1)%20(1).pdf

I use 'drops' in my cider, and I don't pasteurise before fermentation. As a 'minimal input' cider maker, should we be worried (you can't prevent birds from pooping on your apples, either on or off the tree), and if so, what should we do to make sure we don't kill ourselves or our friends?

Duncan

--

--
Visit our website: http://www.ciderworkshop.com
 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Cider Workshop" Google Group.
By joining the Cider Workshop, you agree to abide by our principles. Please see http://www.ciderworkshop.com/resources_principles.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Cider Workshop" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send email to cider-w...@googlegroups.com.

[Wes Cherry]

Here's the slides from the presentation Darlene saw:

http://www.ciderassociation.org/resources/Pictures/BARBARA%20cidercon%202017%202%207%2017.pdf

In my quick skim, they don't talk about pasteurization of finished cider, just fresh juice.   

Given the significant hurdles of ethanol and malic acid for listeria, a in bottle pasteurization step should ensure safe cider made with drops.

-'//es Cherry

Dragon's Head Cider

Vashon Island, Wa US

www.dragonsheadcider.com

--

[Claude Jolicoeur]

You may wish to consider that in practice, all the cider produced in UK, France and Spain, which are 3 of the largest producing countries in the world, all this cider is made from apples that are harvested on the ground... without issues.
Draw your own conclusions...
Claude

[Duncan Hewitt]

Well having never worried about it before, I dug some old notes out from a course I went on ages ago in the UK, and sure enough, although the tutor mentioned they use one third windfalls to two thirds tree-picked (something I still do), he does mention that if animals have been grazing under the tress you should make sure any faeces are 'washed off' the apples (nothing about scrubbing or disinfecting), and as a final note

"if cider is to be sold to retailers for storage (generally in sealed bottles) it is a usual requirement that the cider be pasteurised to kill off the natural yeasts and other elements still present after fermentation."

I wonder if this means in the UK whether we are obliged to pasteurise cider in case anything has got through the washing process, if we wild ferment and rely on the yeast present on the apples? We do range chickens under our trees, but we do also check for obvious contamination, though my eyes aren't microscopes :)

Duncan

[Matthew Moser Miller]

I think the document Duncan linked to and the power point Wes linked to are different forms of the same document. I was at the presentation at CiderCon as well, and one of the issues (which I tried to get a clearer answer on, but the presenter was cautious about) not really addressed in the data presented is this: the ethanol levels measured are quite low for a fully fermented cider without dilution. Apart from keeving or really poor fruit, I can't think of how your ethanol levels could be at the 5% considered in the research (though if there are, let me know!). When I asked about the listeria resistance to the sorts of ABVs you get from a full fermentation (in the 6%-8.5%) at medium pHs (3.6-3.8 range), I didn't really get a straight answer-- possibly because she didn't have the data, and didn't want to misrepresent/ be unscientific.

And it's worth keeping in mind some of this has to do with the peculiarities of individual national laws on bacterial load; the US has a zero-tolerance policy for listeria, but allows quite high levels of salmonella, but I believe the EU has more relaxed regulations for listeria but are much more stringent about certain other bacteria.

All of which is to say, for the OP: if the orchardist in question is concerned about selling you the drops to make cider for home use, I'm pretty sure he'd be fine (though this is not actual legal advice). He's selling you the apples not for unprocessed human consumption; what you do with them is your business, I should think.

I'm interested in Claude's point, too; are these standards applied to imported ciders as well? Because I would think some of the machine-harvested, bottle-conditioned, keeved French cidres I've seen for sale here would have trouble fitting the letter of the law outlined in the presentation.

Matt Moser Miller

--
--
Visit our website: http://www.ciderworkshop.com
 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Cider Workshop" Google Group.
By joining the Cider Workshop, you agree to abide by our principles. Please see http://www.ciderworkshop.com/resources_principles.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Cider Workshop" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cider-workshop+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to cider-workshop@googlegroups.com.

[Wes Cherry]

Also, no mention of sulfites.   

I recall Andrew posting a link to a study on microbial pathogens in cider.   I tried searching the archives, but I'm on mobile and searching is difficult.

This would be a fantastic thing for the USACM or NWCA to fund research on.

-'//es Cherry

Dragon's Head Cider

Vashon Island, Wa US

www.dragonsheadcider.com

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to cider-w...@googlegroups.com.

[Vince Wakefield]

I am be wrong but as far as I know all British cider producers collect from the ground, normally after shaking the trees, some apples will have been on the ground for a number of weeks some for a few minutes

 

Here is the link to the post wes mentioned

 

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/cider-workshop/jLLcutGSBvY

 

Vince

Virus-free. www.avg.com

[Duncan Hewitt]

Cheers Vince - brilliant :)

Duncan

[Matthew Moser Miller]

So, I just sent off an email to the person who gave the presentation Darlene/Duncan/Wes were mentioning, after I followed up and read through the paper that was providing the "not necessarily enough listeria reduction in fermentation" concern from the safety folks.

That paper was Barker & Park's "Sensitization of L. monocytogenes..." (2001), which you can hopefully see through this link: http://aem.asm.org/content/67/4/1594.full.pdf+html?sid=700d1b0c-8f38-4214-88aa-584bcddb4141  (if the link doesn't work, the pdf should be attached to this post). Here's the relevant text of the email I sent:

"Listeria seems to be the area of primary concern. You expressed doubt about the viability of a 5-log reduction at higher pH (4.0) and lower alcohol (5.0%), w/ a 1-hr incubation at 37C. I read through Barker & Park's "Sensitization of L. monocytogenes..." (2001), and it seemed that this was based on the Fig. 1 table with the combined presence of malate and the 5% alcohol. Another table in the figure (assuming I'm reading it right) seems to say that there is a 5+log reduction after 120 min. in the pH 4.0/5% alcohol/ lactate combination. Am I reading that correctly? And if so, is this lactate comparable to the lactic acid produced in a malolactic fermentation? Another way of putting this: would having a cider undergo malolactic fermentation increase the reduction of listeria to the point that it could be considered "adequate processing," even at the too-high pH of 4.0?

Secondly: is there any further research that's been done on listeria (and other bacteria) survival in conditions more like actual, full-juice cidermaking? That is: alcohol levels of 6-7-8.5%, pH of 3.4-3.8, temperatures closer to standard fermentation temps (between 13C and 26C, rather than 37C)? And is there any work whatsoever on the antimicrobial effects of tannins in cider? I would think that all of those would further increase the bacterial reduction, but I don't know. I did find one study that higher alcohol content (Goverd & Beech "The Occurrence and Survival of Coliforms..." (1979); http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2672.1979.tb00851.x/epdf ) dramatically reducing bacterial survival, but that study focuses on coliforms and salmonellas."

All of which is to say: could somebody better versed in science take a look at the study/Fig. 1 and see if I read it correctly? Because if I did, and if the lactate in the study would be comparable in quantity to the lactic acid formed through MLF, that seems like a really important argument/tool for cider producers to deal with the US windfall/batch testing question if they were willing to encourage MLF to reach the necessary reduction in listeria.

That said...my degree is in poetry and it's been a decade since I took my solitary biology course, so I'm keenly aware that I may not be reading the table correctly. Any help appreciated!

Matt Moser Miller

On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 2:26 PM, Duncan Hewitt <dun...@kopperdrake.co.uk> wrote:

Cheers Vince - brilliant :)

Duncan

On 13/10/2017 19:08, Vince Wakefield wrote:

I am be wrong but as far as I know all British cider producers collect from the ground, normally after shaking the trees, some apples will have been on the ground for a number of weeks some for a few minutes

 

Here is the link to the post wes mentioned

 

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/cider-workshop/jLLcutGSBvY

 

Vince

Virus-free. www.avg.com

--
--
Visit our website: http://www.ciderworkshop.com
 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Cider Workshop" Google Group.
By joining the Cider Workshop, you agree to abide by our principles. Please see http://www.ciderworkshop.com/resources_principles.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Cider Workshop" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cider-workshop+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to cider-workshop@googlegroups.com.

For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
--
Visit our website: http://www.ciderworkshop.com
 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Cider Workshop" Google Group.
By joining the Cider Workshop, you agree to abide by our principles. Please see http://www.ciderworkshop.com/resources_principles.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Cider Workshop" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cider-workshop+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to cider-workshop@googlegroups.com.

[Wes Cherry]

Malic is converted to lactic via ML, and from table 1, lactic is is less effective than malic at killing listeria so no, ML will make things worse.

Makes sense because malic's pKa is lower than malic, and malic donates 2 protons, lactic only 1.

-'//es Cherry

Dragon's Head Cider

Vashon Island, Wa US

www.dragonsheadcider.com

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to cider-w...@googlegroups.com.

For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

<Barker & Park- Sensitization of L. monocytogenes... 2001.pdf>

[Matthew Moser Miller]

I see what you're saying about Table 1, but what about Fig. 1 Graph B (26 mM lactate) and D (15 mM malate) at pH 4.0? And in their "Results" section, they say that "when cells were exposed to lactate and incubated at pH 4.0, little decrease in viability was evident, but when ethanol was present, a 5-log unit reduction in viability occurred in 120 min (Fig. 1). For comparison, at pH 3.0 the same combination of acid and ethanol brought about an equivalent reduction in viability in just 12 min" (p 1595). So, yeah, it seems to happen ten times faster at pH 3.0, but doesn't this meant that it still works to reach that 5-log reduction at at pH of 4.0 if lactate is present in high enough concentrations?

Matt Moser Miller

To post to this group, send email to cider-w...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
--
Visit our website: http://www.ciderworkshop.com
 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Cider Workshop" Google Group.
By joining the Cider Workshop, you agree to abide by our principles. Please see http://www.ciderworkshop.com/resources_principles.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Cider Workshop" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cider-workshop+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send email to cider-w...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
--
Visit our website: http://www.ciderworkshop.com
 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Cider Workshop" Google Group.
By joining the Cider Workshop, you agree to abide by our principles. Please see http://www.ciderworkshop.com/resources_principles.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Cider Workshop" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cider-workshop+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to cider-workshop@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

<Barker & Park- Sensitization of L. monocytogenes... 2001.pdf>

--