Making clear juice

[Steve Bulmer]

Hi Everyone,

I'm trying to make sweet cider by blending apple juice with fermented and aged cider.

Fermentation has been a wild one by which I mean I've used half of the recommended amount of sulphites and haven't added any yeasts. This was done in October.

Now I bought another batch of apples I pressed them, added half the SO2 and some pectolytic enzymes. I put the whole thing (5 L demi-john) in the fridge and I'm now awaiting settling. The enzyme product I'm using was made for using in wine and I've followed dosage recommendations. Should I have used more enzymes? Settling out seems to take forever (It's been 5 days and the juice doesn't resemble the store bought juice in clairity or color).

I'm worried that after I bottle&pasteurize the juice-cider blend, there will be sediment in the bottles or the cider will get cloudy.

Does anyone have a well worked out method for this?

Thanks,
Steve

[Dries Muylaert]

2013/2/16 Steve Bulmer <ader...@gmail.com>

Hi Everyone,

I'm trying to make sweet cider by blending apple juice with fermented and aged cider.

Fermentation has been a wild one by which I mean I've used half of the recommended amount of sulphites and haven't added any yeasts. This was done in October.

Now I bought another batch of apples I pressed them, added half the SO2 and some pectolytic enzymes. I put the whole thing (5 L demi-john) in the fridge and I'm now awaiting settling. The enzyme product I'm using was made for using in wine and I've followed dosage recommendations. Should I have used more enzymes? Settling out seems to take forever (It's been 5 days and the juice doesn't resemble the store bought juice in clairity or color).

Make sure you pasteurize the blend, if not, the sediment will be on the ceiling. The pectoenzymes I work with require an optimal temperature, above the usual 4 Celcius in a fridge. If below mostly doubling the amount is advised. That info could be on the package. 

I'm worried that after I bottle&pasteurize the juice-cider blend, there will be sediment in the bottles or the cider will get cloudy.

Does anyone have a well worked out method for this?

Thanks,
Steve

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[Steve Bulmer]

Thanks for the tip. Unfortunately, taking out the juice from the fridge didn't solve the problem completely, nor did adding more pectoenzymes. Now there's about five times the recommended dosage in the demi john.

The enzymes are at work (there's sediment on the bottom) its just that they're not working fast enough! I can see some bubbles forming but i still cannot see through the juice. I put a cork in the demi john and it barely gives a hiss when I remove it. The haze is not persistent because of the CO2 stirring up the juice.

I have a temp controlled waterbath, I can use that to increase the temp to an optimal level for enzyme activity. I'm not sure how I will do that on a larger scale though. Any thoughts?

I'm making dessert fruit juice by the way.

Steve

[Cheshire Matt]

Steve Bulmer wrote:

its just that they're not working fast enough!

How fast do you want it to work? Even though enzyme's been added, it's still a biological process in a pretty much uncontrolled environment with many variables.

I put a cork in the demi john and it barely gives a hiss when I remove it.

How long did you leave it for - 24hours?  Having a gushing, foaming reaction is probably not what you want anyway.  If gas is being produced, it's working - so let nature take its course.

Settling out seems to take forever (It's been 5 days and the juice doesn't resemble the store bought juice in clairity or color).

Again, from your earlier post, I can't think how you can realistically expect just 5 days on a homebrew process to yield same results as industrial-scale commercial processes.

At the end of the day, if it's taking too long and you're not getting the results you desire, maybe this form of cider making isn't for you?

Just how I see it.

[Steve Bulmer]

Thanks for the input. Before banishing me from the cidermaker community please hear me out! :)

It's just that I haven't done this before and I wouldn't want fermentation start before the juice gets clear. How will I be able to tell if the enzyme treatment has finished?

I'm interested in other people's experience with this process. Do you have any info to share regarding this? It's been 2 weeks now that I pressed the juice.The demi john spent a week in the fridge and another on the counter at room temperature. The haze is continually disappearing but it would be nicer to have a better method to do this.

Steve

[Tim]

Read this http://www.cider.org.uk/

 

Tim

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[Onslow's dry]

Hi Steve,

If you were to start out using the "juice and strain" method you wouldn't have a pectin issue to worry about.

In my experience every batch of cider that I have made, and there are now many 10+,  using the juicers has achieved crystal clarity after fermentation is complete, without any addition of pectolytic enzyme at any point.

ascribe this to the very short contact time between juice and ejected pulp. There is simply no opportunity for pectin to be extracted from the disrupted apple cell walls with the posible exception of the last juice squeezed from the straining bag. Even here this has not been a problem. Moreover, I have added white sugar to several DJs of juice and fermented these out to up to 15% ABV and again there has been no pectin precipitation. This is because, I presume, there is little or no pectin held in solution in the first place.

You'll find the threads for "juice and strain" on the Workshop. However, the "starter" video is at :  http://youtu.be/Qvc0cCh5r0c.

Nevin

[Steve Bulmer]

I think this is the relevant part:

Clear Juice

To make a clear golden juice it is necessary to destroy the pectin cloud and to allow a certain amount of oxidation for colour development. The most reliable way of doing this is to press out the juice as normal into a clean container, without the addition of any ascorbic acid. Add a pectolytic enzyme and keep the juice cool overnight to prevent yeast growth and fermentation. Next morning, the juice should be golden in colour and should have dropped bright, leaving a sediment at the bottom. If not, it may have to be fined with gelatin/bentonite (see Part 5) and left cool for a further day.

I juice didn't drop bright the next day as described here.When I ferment I always get clear juice in the end. Maybe I do need the bentonite fining.

Thanks.

Steve

[Jez Howat]

Steve,

Don't worry - no one is going to banish you! (note to Matt... Easy on new cider makers buddy:-)

I think I have misunderstood you Steve - are you making juice or are you going for cider?

If juice, you may have to filter or accept that it will be cloudy. It's just how it is.

If to are making cider, stop being worried about cloudiness before fermentation. It should drop clear once fermentation is finished. It is a fairly straight forward process and doesn't need much mucking about (though fit an airlock rather than a bung or cork... Unless you are after something a little explosive:-)

When I get to a proper computer I will go back through the thread in case I missed something.

All the best

Jez

Sent from my iPhone

[Andrew Lea]

On 26/02/2013 19:06, Steve Bulmer wrote:
> I think this is the relevant part:
>
>
> Clear Juice
>
> To make a clear golden juice it is necessary to destroy the pectin cloud
> and to allow a certain amount of oxidation for colour development. The
> most reliable way of doing this is to press out the juice as normal into
> a clean container, without the addition of any ascorbic acid. Add a
> pectolytic enzyme and keep the juice cool overnight to prevent yeast

> growth and fermentation. /Next morning, the juice should be golden in

> colour and should have dropped bright, leaving a sediment at the bottom.
> If not, it may have to be fined with gelatin/bentonite (see Part 5) and

> left cool for a further day./

>
> I juice didn't drop bright the next day as described here.When I ferment
> I always get clear juice in the end. Maybe I do need the bentonite fining.

I'm sorry those directions didn't work for you. It could be the late
season dessert apples which are much more difficult to clarify than
those from early season because the fruit is already starting to break
down. It could have been an inadequate pectinase - what sort was it?
Also although my text says 'keep cool' I didn't mean in the fridge where
the pectinase will work only slowly if at all. Cool in this context is
around 10C - 15C. Actually it is interesting that if you hold the juice
at 55C for a couple of hours with pectinase you can often achieve the
required result - and that's too high a temperature for the yeast!

From what you are saying, (wild yeast) fermentation seems to be
starting. There should be no bubbles of any sort simply from pectinase
action. If there are, yeasts have started to work. This may
paradoxically help the eventual clearing but you won't be able to see it
now for movement of particles. You may be lucky with bentonite fining -
but I would probably recommend using Kwik Clear which is a two part
gelatin / kieselsol fining. Now that fermentation has begun, things will
be more difficult so maybe keeping at 4C is a good idea now to slow the
yeast right down and to help sedimentation. If you had a filter you
could probably ensure a clear juice after fining - as it is you will
just have to hope for compact bottoms that you can rack OK!

Finally, as someone has already said I think, if you plan to use this
juice to sweeten an existing cider then pasteurisation of the sweetened
cider is MANDATORY. Otherwise you will just get exploding bottles.

Andrew

--
Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

[Onslow's dry]

How does the expresion go? Prevention is better than cure.

[Steve Bulmer]

Thanks to all of you for your replies.

@Onslow's dry: I checked your video and found it interesting although I was trying to achieve a clear juice to blend with already fermented cider.

@Andrew: As always you've come with the definitive answer to the question. :)

I tried putting the demijohn into the 55 degrees water bath and solved two problems (onset of fermentation and cloudy juice) at one go. Finally, I'm ready to blend. :)

When scaling up I won't have the ability to do this type of procedure. I will be looking at other types of pecto enzyme products with intended use for juice clarification. I've been using Lallzyme C which is an enological use enzyme. It helped greatly when I wanted to make clear cider but wasn't good enough when I needed quick clarification.

If that doesn't work I'll resort to the use of fining agents. That's something I've been reluctant to do so far. It has been my initial response to the the idea of putting 'stuff' into 'MY CIDER', but I'll read up on it and give it a go.

My plan is to ferment in-season apples and sweeten with stored apples after fermentation. Which means that this will be a problem which I'll be facing every season.

Thanks for the tips.

Steve

[Andrew Lea]

On 03/03/2013 16:38, Steve Bulmer wrote:
> Thanks to all of you for your replies.

> I've been using Lallzyme C which is an
> enological use enzyme. It helped greatly when I wanted to make clear
> cider but wasn't good enough when I needed quick clarification.

Steve, I can't remember which country you're in but after looking at the
data sheet I would not think Lallzyme C is really up to the job that
you're asking. Apple pectin is quite a bit different in structure from
grape pectin, plus which there is a lot more of it especially in
long-stored dessert fruit.

I would recommend you go straight for a pectic enzyme cocktail tailored
for apple juice if you want to scale up and repeat this next year. For
instance in Europe the Erbsloeh company sells a range of such enzymes
under the 'Fructozym' brand name. You might even consider 'mash
enzyming'. This is quite a useful article by the Erbsloeh technical
people http://www.fruit-processing.com/docs/FP_2_2008_p.82-86.pdf

[Mark Rogers]

long-stored dessert fruit

'mash enzyming.

(not sure if I've done this right- first time I've posted a reply.)

I get to my fruit early (first) in the season to avoid patulin and the fruit is much easier to deal with in many respects.  I tried fructozym post pressing and found that although it worked with a little temperature it took longer than I felt I could wait regarding fermentation and the flavours that follow.  I then tried it in the press while filling up the cheese (is this what you mean Andrew?) and found that it worked a treat.  The effect seemed quicker and the press yielded more juice and was easier to turn down.

I'd be interested to hear what other folks have found with fructozym both sides of the press.  As this is only my observation over one season and my first larger scale foray into enzymes.  

Mark.

[Steve Bulmer]

Thank you, Andrew.

I'm located in Hungary so this info is really useful.

I have talked to a salesperson at Uvaferm (producer of Lallzyme) before buying their pecto enzymes to find out if it was suitable for apples and he said yes. Now I looked into their technical guide and it says that juice should drop clear overnight which didn't happen for me. I will definitely try Erbslöh and if it does the trick then I'll be giving the Uvaferm guy a bit of unsolicited feedback.

Altough I'm not a British subject I'll be recommending you for at least an OBE for service to cidermaking one of these days. :)

Mash enzyming is also a good idea. I did experience a drop in juice yields at the latest (February) pressing. It went from the ususal 60 to 50 percent or even less.

Thanks for all the tips. I'll be reporting back and sharing experiences.

Steve

[thecidera...@gmail.com]

Hi Andrew, does this product work at low temperatures? It's often as low as 5 degrees when I'm pressing my apples?

Are you sure Lallzyme C would not be up to the job? I'm tempted to try Lallzyme C Max because it is supposed to work at low temperatures.

Thanks

[Andrew Lea]

The original 3.5 year old thread was about making clear apple juice as
juice, not prior to making cider. Lallzyme C is tailored for use in
grape juices which are to be fermented into wine. The two situations are
not the same, and grape pectin is structurally different from apple
pectin in that it is far less highly methylated. Hence Lallzyme C as far
as I can see from the published information contains less PME than would
be desirable to break down apple pectin. Pectinases intended for apple
are usually formulated with higher levels of PME as I understand.

I note that Lallzyme C Max claims to be active down to 5C which sounds
very impressive. If this is important to you then all I can suggest is
that you give it a try. Standard pectinase cocktails for use on apple
are not usually very active below about 15C. They do work, but slowly,
over days not hours. Generally to make clear apple juice it is held warm
after enzyme addition so that pectin breakdown is fast and complete in
an hour or two and the juice can be taken on quickly for final processing.

Andrew

> <http://www.fruit-processing.com/docs/FP_2_2008_p.82-86.pdf>
>
> Andrew

[Claude Jolicoeur]

The data sheet of C-Max says:

Lallzyme C-MAX is a clarification pectinase
designed for a fast and complete
depectinization of juices in more extreme
situations such as high pectin content, low
temperatures or low pH.

And true, by reading this we are led to think this would be good for apple juice, as there is a high pectin content, a low pH and often we work at low temperature.
I tried it a few weeks ago, and after 2 days, I couldn't see any difference with the juice in another bucket that had another pectinase.
Conclusion: there is no miracle there!
Claude

Le vendredi 4 novembre 2016 13:53:48 UTC-4, Andrew Lea a écrit :

The original 3.5 year old thread was about making clear apple juice as
juice, not prior to making cider. Lallzyme C is tailored for use in

grape juices which are to be fermented into wine.....