weight of beer bottles and carbonation

[jonypiana]

Hello, 

In post way back, someone mentioned that for a cider with a  SG of 1.005, producing a carbonation of 8 g/l (45 psi @ 15 C), a safe bottle to use is a heavy weight beer bottle with a crown cap. I recently purchased a pallet of 22 oz beer bottles that feel fairly light to me. They weigh about 333 grams per bottle. I'm wondering if folks could comment on wether the pressure resulting from a cider bottled at 1.005 SG, would be appropriate for such a bottle.   

thank you kindly

jonny piana

fable farm

[Dougal]

Really, you need to find the manufacturer's bars rating.

[Headelf]

I would not put a 2+ bar beverage in a bomber. Where was the 22 oz bomber made? Under 1 bar you are safe.  1-2 bar - maybe. 2 + - read the story about the predecessors to  a certain Dom P.

Hea...@elfsfarm.com

--
--
Visit our website: http://www.ciderworkshop.com
 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Cider Workshop" Google Group.
By joining and posting to the Cider Workshop, you have agreed to abide by our rules, and principles. Please see http://www.ciderworkshop.com/resources_principles.html
 
To post to this group, send email to cider-w...@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit http://groups.google.com/group/cider-workshop?hl=en
 
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Cider Workshop" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

[Rich Anderson]

I would suggest that you contact the seller or manufacturer for specifications. Much more informative and safer than folklore.

 

[jonypiana]

Hi, 

so the manufacturer said that these bottles can handle 3 volumes of carbonation. Can someone translate what that means?  I understand that a 1.005 SG produces 3 atm and 45 psi in the bottle. How does that translate to 3 volumes of carbonation? I need a short little lesson here. 

thanks so much

jonny

[Dougal]

I'd go back and ask them what bars / psi their rating is.

[Andrew Lea]

No need.

The physics is quite straightforward and has been covered here often.

For instance see here http://cider.org.uk/carbonation_table.xls

3 volumes of CO2 at STP is just under 2 bar at 15C.


Andrew

> --
> --
> Visit our website: http://www.ciderworkshop.com
>
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Cider
> Workshop" Google Group.
> By joining and posting to the Cider Workshop, you have agreed to abide
> by our rules, and principles. Please see
> http://www.ciderworkshop.com/resources_principles.html
>
> To post to this group, send email to cider-w...@googlegroups.com
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com
> For more options, visit http://groups.google.com/group/cider-workshop?hl=en
>
> ---
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "Cider Workshop" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> an email to cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

--
near Oxford, UK
Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

[jonypiana]

Thanks for the carbonation table Andrew. If you could explain it to me a little this would be helpful. I'm trying to figure out how you read the table to get a pressure rating in bars at both STP and 15 C. I see that the bar for O C and 273 K (STP) is 1.883 but the bar for 15C is 2.978. Can you explain this process a bit?  

Also, reading across the table from 20 C I see the bar is 3.43 which I understand translates to 3.385 atm and 49.75 psi. According to the rule of thumb that the safe range of pressure for a cider of SG 1.005 bottled in a beer bottle with crown cap is 3 atm and 45 psi, do I have to worry about a bottle with a 3 volumes of CO2 max exploding if temperatures reach 20 C?

I feel like I'm missing something?

cheers, 

jon

On Wednesday, February 26, 2014 6:28:40 PM UTC-5, jonypiana wrote:

[Andrew Lea]

It is probably best to start off thinking of the saturation
concentration of carbon dioxide at atmospheric pressure (1 bar absolute
or 0 bar gauge) which in water at STP is 1.964 grams CO2 per litre. For
ease and convention we normally call this 2 g/litre. This is also
conventionally defined as '1 volume'. Both measurements are always
referred back to STP. At this point the CO2 pressure in the bottle is in
equilibrium with the ambient pressure of the atmosphere so there is no
excess pressure, i.e. no obvious carbonation. The gauge pressure is zero.

By contrast a '3 volume' or 6 g/L carbonation gives a gauge pressure
(i.e. excess over atmospheric) of 0.883 bar at 0 C. Because gas pressure
rises with temperature, this becomes 1.98 bar at 15C and 2.43 bar at 20C.

Now, let's look at where this gas might come from. Assuming you have a
dry cider at SG 1.000 and you add priming sugar to SG 1.005 then you
have added about 12 g/l of fermentable sugar. The conversion ratio of
this to CO2 is just under 50% but for simplicity we will call the CO2
yield 6 g/L. However, if you are starting with a dry cider not long
after it's finished fermentation, it will probably still be saturated
with CO2 so we have to factor in an extra 2g/L to account for that. So
in total we now have 8 g of dissolved CO2 per litre.

Referring back to the carbonation tables, 8g/L CO2 is '4 volumes' and at
15C gives just under 3 bar gauge pressure (or 45 psi old money). Proper
heavyweight re-usable beer bottles (ca 500 g weight for 500 ml volume)
are rated for this sort of usage.

It seems that you have bought lightweight '3 volume' bottles. In which
case you should stick to the '3 volume' limit. That is, no more than 6
g/L of CO2. Assuming as before that you have 2 g/L already in solution
at the end of fermentation, you have an allowance of 4 g/L of CO2, which
you can acquire from the addition of 8 g/L of sugar, which is an SG
increase for a fully dry cider of about 0.003 SG points. So if your
cider was SG 1.000 when it was dry, you can go up to SG 1.003 with the
added sugar. But bear in mind that some ciders will be below SG 1.000
at dryness. It is safer to add sugar by mass than to a target SG.

Andrew

[jonypiana]

Thank You Andrew for your very detailed and helpful response. I think I'm getting to a better understanding of C02 saturation. 

On Wednesday, February 26, 2014 6:28:40 PM UTC-5, jonypiana wrote: