Scratter (based on Claude Jolicoeur's concept) coming together

[Jim Hossack]

Just working with what I have to work with...so I have some differences as compared to CJ's design.  CJ's recommendation for a 12" dia rotor...mine is 9.5.  My motor is 1/3 hp and 1725 RPM.  I have not turned on yet but coming soon.  

[gloria bell]

We have been struggling with self feeding. 

Ours is a little under 12" wide. 

We ending up just borrowing one for the season last year (even though it was slow) as we couldn't dial in ours. Wheel is wood but housing is all stainless. Hubby is a welder. 

We are going to be working on it again soon and may need some assistance!

Can't see the images....perhaps it's my connection. 

--
--
Visit our website: http://www.ciderworkshop.com
 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Cider Workshop" Google Group.
By joining the Cider Workshop, you agree to abide by our principles. Please see http://www.ciderworkshop.com/resources_principles.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Cider Workshop" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to cider-w...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Claude Jolicoeur]

I don't think the 9.5" rotor will change much. Only maybe for big apples, they might roll on top and get harder to feed in the machine.
Let us know how it goes.
Claude

[Jim Hossack]

Hi Claude - Understood - Thanks for the feedback - and for your book which is a masterpiece!

Jim

[Dick Dunn]

On Tue, Jan 09, 2018 at 11:40:13PM -0800, gloria bell wrote:
> We have been struggling with self feeding.

See Figure 6.14 on p 105 of Claude's book, on "the wedge angle".
That's key. If that angle is too steep, it will never feed well.

--
Dick Dunn rc...@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA

[Peter Eveleigh]

On Wednesday, January 10, 2018 at 7:35:14 AM UTC, Jim Hossack wrote:

Just working with what I have to work with...so I have some differences as compared to CJ's design.  CJ's recommendation for a 12" dia rotor...mine is 9.5.  My motor is 1/3 hp and 1725 RPM.  I have not turned on yet but coming soon.

Jim, - and Gloria, Hi again!

I've made quite a few mills which follow Claude's basic design & would offer the following additional comments (having milled over 2 tons this year without incident!)

1, Make sure you have enough teeth on the rotor - mine are spaced 40 mm apart - this will ensure they grab the apples efficiently - helping with the feed.

2. With your rotor, make sure you thoroughly seal the end grain on the sides otherwise it will swell & give problems with the rotor headspace.

3. Have a close look at your initial feed, the apples seem to drop almost directly onto the rotor, the top plate of your rotor chamber needs to extend  further @ another 15 degree angle towards the throat.

Have a look at my Youtube clip on the mill - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzXzN8sO2jU for ideas on the peripherals (feed tray, feet etc), plus the additional photos which are available on the reference.

Please don't hesitate to get in touch if you need further help; good luck.

Peter

[gloria bell]

Thank you.
We have the book and that is our guide for sure...just didn't come together as we had hoped. Definitely a mark 2 in the works.

> --
> --
> Visit our website: http://www.ciderworkshop.com
>
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Cider Workshop" Google Group.
> By joining the Cider Workshop, you agree to abide by our principles. Please see http://www.ciderworkshop.com/resources_principles.html
> ---
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Cider Workshop" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com.

> To post to this group, send an email to cider-w...@googlegroups.com.

[gloria bell]

Peter!!!!!

So awesome to connect again - this time on a different channel. Wonderful!

Petes been so kind to assist with lots of suggestions. ...we just need to get them all into action.   I still have them noted for scratter 2.0. 

Hubby ended up with a bad case of tendinitis in his dominant arm so the project got put on hold for that and out of lack of time/frustration. 

Thanks again!

--

--
Visit our website: http://www.ciderworkshop.com
 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Cider Workshop" Google Group.
By joining the Cider Workshop, you agree to abide by our principles. Please see http://www.ciderworkshop.com/resources_principles.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Cider Workshop" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send email to cider-w...@googlegroups.com.

[Jim Hossack]

Yes Sir, I have some 2 part epoxy for wood ready for filling the cracks and some varnish after that. Good tip on the teeth spacing-thank you. I know your YouTube video well - thanks for that! I will report back on its first “spin-chop” on some store bought apples as my harvest this year was pretty poor for my late apples ( Goldrush and Sundance) in SE Michigan zone 5b-6a.

[Jim Hossack]

Here's an update.  The frame is oak hardwood flooring that I glued together to make rails and cross pieces which I "dado-jointed" into the rails.  Then I inserted (wood-epoxied) threaded bushings into the ends of the cross pieces so I could use bolts and easily take this apart.  I built a little sled that the motor rides on with a threaded rod belt tensioner.  Next up, filling the cracks in my rotor and bolting the box-hood-stator to the rails - oh, and adding more teeth as per Peters suggestion.  I think I will wait for spring to start covering with varnish.  Here is a movie of it running.  The suspense as to how well it will work (pomace quality) is building.  Cheers!

Jim

https://www.flickr.com/photos/139018307@N04/40157532812/in/dateposted/

[luis.ga...@gmail.com]

I'm wondering : is varnish really an important feature on the mill if it is not made of plywood (that contains formaldeyde based glue)?

Louis

[gloria bell]

I believe there are some good grade 'varnishes'. We've chosen to use mineral oil for ours but we don't have a commercial press. It's for us (and friends). 

I'd be interested to hear what others would recommend and are doing/have done in that regard. 

--

[gloria bell]

The above should have read FOOD grade 'varnishes' (not good grade varishes). 

Thought that needed to be cleared up and noted

On Feb 11, 2018, at 8:26 PM, luis.ga...@gmail.com wrote:

--

[Peter Eveleigh]

On Saturday, February 10, 2018 at 8:32:49 PM UTC, Jim Hossack wrote:

"- - -  Next up, filling the cracks in my rotor and bolting the box-hood-stator to the rails - oh, and adding more teeth as per Peters suggestion.  I think I will wait for spring to start covering with varnish.  Here is a movie of it running.  The suspense as to how well it will work (pomace quality) is building.  Cheers!

Jim

https://www.flickr.com/photos/139018307@N04/40157532812/in/dateposted/

Jim, I've just noticed you have not split the stator box into a "top" & bottom". Not only will this make cleaning more difficult (with rotor still in place) but you will deny the opportunity for fine adjustment of the head-space / gap. It will also mean you have only one chance to get these critical dimensions right when bolting it all together. By fixing the bottom section rigidly to the frame you can adjust the top (stator) to the correct headspace. (Remember to make the bottom (box) 2 mm wider than the top (stator).

On the "varnish issue", I prefer oil based as it lasts longer but (as Claude says in his book) it will require weeks to go off properly (and so become food safe). Quality external grade acrylic varnishes do almost as well!   

[Jim Hossack]

Hi Peter,  True!- no bottom box yet!  On the top box I have routered some slots for adjustment of the "Stator-wall" away from the teeth on the rotor.  I can adjust (and lock it) from scraping teeth to about 1/2 inch away which I'm sure will be too large of a gap but interesting to see the difference between basically zero clearance between teeth and stator-wall all the way out to 1/2 or so away.

I was thinking rather than a bottom box, a chute of "shower-curtain" like material.  Shower-curtain but more substantial...like heavy duty rain coat material.  This could help with adjusting the "spray" between different catch basins , a 5 gallon bucket vs. a rubbermaid tote for example.  This is something I have not invested much thought in at present.  Another box should be no problem either for that matter...lots of time to get this sorted.  Appreciate your insights!

[luis.ga...@gmail.com]

For the chute, something like a box made of stainless steel might be nicer to work with, clean, etc. than a shower curtain... Also more food grade I guess. That's what i've done.

[Jim Hossack]

Right on, duly noted.  Here are pics of the adjustment slots we (Peter and me) were talking about previously.

[Peter Eveleigh]

On Monday, February 12, 2018 at 3:32:47 PM UTC, Jim Hossack wrote:

Hi Peter,  True!- no bottom box yet!  On the top box I have routered some slots for adjustment of the "Stator-wall" away from the teeth on the rotor.  I can adjust (and lock it) from scraping teeth to about 1/2 inch away which I'm sure will be too large of a gap but interesting to see the difference between basically zero clearance between teeth and stator-wall all the way out to 1/2 or so away.

I was thinking rather than a bottom box, a chute of "shower-curtain" like material.  Shower-curtain but more substantial...like heavy duty rain coat material.  This could help with adjusting the "spray" between different catch basins , a 5 gallon bucket vs. a rubbermaid tote for example.  This is something I have not invested much thought in at present.  Another box should be no problem either for that matter...lots of time to get this sorted.  Appreciate your insights!

Jim,
1. 1/2 inch overall clearance should be fine.
2, On your chute thoughts, I agree that the size/shape of the catching bucket will affect how this should be made - suggest you use one as large as you can; the one in the photo belo is a 44 litre "builder's bucket" and widely available - and used by home cider makers here. I have used a plastic rainwater hopper suitably cut down to remove the downpipe connector.in the past, but now build a wooden baffle into the lower box.

 

[luis.ga...@gmail.com]

Peter, I'm wondering, out of curiosity, how did you do your teeth? Did you use Claude's suggested method with stainless steel shaped with a hammer and a vice? 

[Peter Eveleigh]

On Friday, February 16, 2018 at 3:22:03 AM UTC, luis.ga...@gmail.com wrote:

Peter, I'm wondering, out of curiosity, how did you do your teeth? Did you use Claude's suggested method with stainless steel shaped with a hammer and a vice? 

Hi Luis,

I use the same principle but (now) use 1.5mm S/S sheet cropped to 12mm width, then sawn to 50mm lengths. I use a depth jig to get an even 2mm "bite" in the vice and also place a piece of scrap hardwood over the whole 50mm length to even out the hammer stikes. Then "finish tap" the blade flush onto the vice jaw. Voila! The blades are spaced approx 40mm apart and alternated (as shown on the previous photo) to keep the apples guessing!

[Jim Hossack]

Right On Peter - Sweet Build!  Thanks for the nice photo!

Jim

[Jim Hossack]

[Jim Hossack]

Hopper and sorting table on the top me thinks.

[luis.ga...@gmail.com]

Is there an optimal distance to space the blades? I'm wondering if the closer blades could be spaced, if it would have a positive impact of pomace quality.

Louis

[Gloria Bell]

Thank you Peter and Claude for helping us build this scratter!!

Pictures in the link below and a few videos (if they don't link here)

https://globell.smugmug.com/Press/n-rmxf99/i-trV3DL5 

This is our mark2.  

Next year it'll be the final scratter made of stainless (wheel will be maple as seen).  The baskets will be moved aside for rack and cloth pressing although we are getting very dry cheeses.  We do add a plate in the middle of the basket and form two cheeses.

Press has new supports for the pressure bar and will be all powder coated/painted for next season.

Be adding in more stainless screws to fill the gaps but working so well and self feeds like a dream (even better than the video).  Never have a stuck apple and we can open up the shoot to manage larger apples.

1 HP motor

8 Tonne cylinder

12" wide and 12" in depth

Will be building a delivery tray with water washing and sorting so no fingers/body parts get anywhere near that drum.  Oh - it's going to be great!

I'm pretty sure we can easily scrat 1000 lbs an hour which is well more than we need it to do.

Happy to report that my shoulders are not aching as in previous years when we've used a manual screw press and a scratter that needed to push apples into the drum....

Successful year!  Thank you to all that assisted!

[Peter Eveleigh]

On Friday, October 5, 2018 at 2:27:47 PM UTC+1, luis.ga...@gmail.com wrote:

Is there an optimal distance to space the blades? I'm wondering if the closer blades could be spaced, if it would have a positive impact of pomace quality.

Luis Hi;

During my research, I tried both combination of s.s. screws + cutter bars; expanded metal grid; and closer distances. If they are too close you get more "bounce back" - which is why I settled on about 40 mm apart. It's more important to maintain an equal distance between the teeth in order to maintain rotor balance. Peter 

[luis.ga...@gmail.com]

Thank you Peter.

Mine are actually spaced at 80 ou 100 mm apart. I observe some chunks getting through the mill and I was wondering if this could bee due to too distanced blades, or maybe a lack of speed on the rotor (+- 400 rpm I think). My assumptions might just also be wrong and it might just be due to rotor or mill design.

Louis

[Thomas Fehige]

My guess would be that there are several parameters, i.e. rotor speed, rotor diameter and blade spacing, that together determine the final behaviour of the scratter. A slower rotor speed would need closer spacing of the blades or a bigger rotor diameter. (After all, it is not the rpm but the speed the rotor's surface goes past the apples that we need to consider, and that increases with a bigger rotor diameter.) If you get chunks, you may want to look at the size of the gap between the blades and the opposite surface or edge. Maybe make shorter blades. The metal ridges in my old Voran mill protrude only a bit more than a millimetre from the oak drum. The gap between them and the tray edge is another millimetre or maybe a little bit more. And their spacing is somewhere between 20 and 30 mm.

Cheers -- Thomas

[luis.ga...@gmail.com]

Hi Thomas,

Thank you for your input. I don't know the optimal rotor surface speed (is there any?)... The gap between the rotor and the stator is the smalest it can be but this might still be a bit too big for optimum gringind. I think I will try your blades spacing, which might give better results. I'll try to make some modification on it this year and see how it goes next year. 

If I get surprising levels, i'll let you know via the forum.

Thank you.

Louis

[Thomas Fehige]

Am Dienstag, 16. Oktober 2018 15:33:54 UTC+2 schrieb luis.ga...@gmail.com:

 don't know the optimal rotor surface speed (is there any?)

I don't think there is. Thinking further, optimal probably wouldn't be the same for every kind of apple ... What I was trying to say is that there are several parameters that influence each other. The lower the surface speed, the closer the blades need to be spaced. The smaller the drum, the lower the surface speed at the same rpm. The bigger the diametre of the drum, the higher the surface speed (at the same rpm) and the more HP is needed from the motor to wreak the same destruction on the apples. And so on. Bring in Claude's (very helpful) discussion of the compression angles, and you have another set of parameters to be aware of.

 

The gap between the rotor and the stator is the smalest it can be but this might still be a bit too big for optimum gringind. I think I will try your blades spacing, which might give better results. I'll try to make some modification on it this year and see how it goes next year.

It's not my spacing etc., it's just what I have: an old Austrian Voran scratter attached to my press. It is (almost) the same contraption Andrew shows here: http://www.cider.org.uk/voran.jpg and in more detail in his book. It was built like that for several decades for (mainly) Austrian cider and perry makers. Meanwhile, Voran seem to have given up on this kind of scratter and rather subscribe to a kind of scaled-up versions of the Speidel scratter. They are definitely easier for cleaning, which can be a bit of a pain in my somewhat antique, oakwood variety. -- Which, however, is pretty close to Claude's suggestions in his book.

[Travis Pollard]

Hi everyone,

I'm working on the same, just received my 12" by 4" HDPE rod stock. I was going to order bearings and a shaft but I don't know what diameter to get? What diameter shaft do you recommend for the rotor? 

Cheers! 

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le vendredi 12 février 2021 à 03:22:03 UTC-5, travis....@gmail.com a écrit :

Hi everyone,

I'm working on the same, just received my 12" by 4" HDPE rod stock. I was going to order bearings and a shaft but I don't know what diameter to get? What diameter shaft do you recommend for the rotor? 

I think mine is 5/8" diameter. I'd need to check to be sure, but I am not there at the moment...

Claude

[Peter Eveleigh]

I've always used 20mm stainless steel rod linked to "plummer bearing blocks" for the ones I've made. It may also help if you use floating bearings as this will help with aligning the rotor into its frame.

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Here is a photo of mine. My shaft is definitely of a smaller diametter than Peter's. But it is strong enough. By the look on the photo it does appear to be 5/8". This mill has now seen 10 years of use, with the only maintenance required some re-application of varnish.

And as Peter points, bearings that permit alignment are a must.

[Peter Eveleigh]

It may only be a point of interest but the reason I use a 20mm rod is to allow a 6mm retaining bolt to be drilled through the rod as the means to transmit the power to the rotor. This then enables the rotor to be a more snug fit in its housing (target: 5mm either side) as you are not having to make additional (gap) allowance for the collars as shown on Claude's photo.  I would also concur with Claude on the maintenance!