Scatter/Mill costs

[Andy Andy]

Hello all,

I have a big curiosity in regards to the cost of a scatter/mill.
This is question for everybody so each answer is important.
As hobby/small/mid producers how much will you be willing to spend on a new apple mill(e.g. no more then £,€,$)? Also what are the features that you want to see on the "perfect" mill (e.g. size, material: stainless steel or painted, kg/hour, noise, method of feeding the apples)?

Thank you.

[dave pert]

Hi Andy,

 weirdly coincidental timing with your thread, as I've just been through the mill on this one (if you'll pardon the pun) and taken delivery of one of these, this very afternoon:

https://www.pressfruit.co.uk/product/worktop-electric-apple-mill-ese-055/ 

Around £500. I think I got the last one in Europe (they're made in Latvia). It'll be a month or so before I see if it meets expectations, but thought process as follows:

- Didn't want to spend a grand on a Speidel, though they're reputed to be excellent. However as I'm tracking my costs with a view to running a business,  it has to "wash its face" financially. Probably be pressing around a ton this year, which would take the Speidel a little over an hour to churn through. For something that's one of the primary assets of your business, you'd want a bit more than an hour's run-time on it before it was out of warranty, just so any basic faults show up.

- Working position - Speidel and other trumpet mills require you to lift 10-15kg crates of apples up to chest height repeatedly to feed them. The lesser trumpet mills require you to trickle apples in gently , rather than dump in one go, which means holding a weight at height for a period of minutes.I'd imagine the novelty wears off this quite quickly. The also fill containers at ground level (limiting the height of the container), which will then require to be picked up. The ESE-055 can just sit on a workbench. Plan is to get a stainless catering table and perch it on the end over a 60l blue oak drum. I can then lift drained crates of washed apples onto the table and feed from there, whilst grading out anything too disgusting to use. A press day will be a morning filling a few drums with pomace, followed by an afternoon of pressing and tidying up.

- Quality of pomace - A rotary grating device should produce a very consistent pomace, and in the videos it looks very fine.

- Low power consumption - This is the area where I've taken the risk. The trumpet mills are much higher wattage, and I suspect this is because the top blades need to pretty much act like hammers and destroy the apples mid-air, lest they clog the system. This needs masses of power, hence the 2.2 kw of the speidel and the 1.5kw of the other decent trumpets. The ESE-055 is rated at 0.55kw which I'm assuming/hoping is more than plenty to run a grater. Should also be quieter. Anything I can do to lower the amount of electricity required to make cider the better. Though keep your eyes peeled for a "my scratter is too weak" thread in a few weeks time...

- Ease of cleaning - Stainless construction and, if the reviews are to be believed,  breaks down into bits that fit into a domestic dishwasher. Happy days.

- Gravity and juice are not conspiring together to overcome the driveshaft seal into the motor,  as is the case with trumpet mills. Some of the lesser ones seem to have issues with this.

- Less space required to store it

- Takes whole apples - anything that requires apples to be cut up is a waste of time.

Though I may eat all those words in a few week's time, depending how it goes...

I've graduated up from a cheapo green barrel-organ type hook and gear affair, which was adapted to be driven by a 1500w electric drill. These (and also some of the significantly more expensive models) produce a pomace which has a lot of chunks in the 6-10mm range which is just far too coarse. With a cheap press you'll get under 30% recovery, which is heart-breaking. We did have a second stage process which was a 5inch captive blade mounted on a 1metre shaft. This was fed through a piece of plywood and was attached to a 1000watt drill. The plywood was used as the lid of a 23litre brewing bucket, and one person would hold the lid in place and move it from side to side as the other pumped the spinning blade up and down. Worked, but really labour intensive and time consuming.

Advice for anyone making under 20 gallons a year would be to spend £100 on a decent, high wattage centrifugal juicer with soft start and motor control. These give you around 50% recovery, and when you factor in set-up, break-down and cleaning time are much quicker for small quantities. Just don't burn the motor out.

hope this helps,

Dave

[Ray Blockley]

Hi Andy.

We've gone from food processor, to hand-powered, to electric mills. 5 in total over 2+ decades.

Currently we have the Spiedel yellow plastic model. 

My advice to everyone is the same: the mill is one of / if not _the_ most important part of the process to get a fine porridge-like consistency to ensure good juice release. 

So don't scrimp on whatever you decide upon.

A simple hand built press will be pretty amazing if you feed it pomace of the right consistency? 

In hindsight I wish we had gone for a mill with interchangeable screens to suit different apple / pear types - so if you are thinking long term, do factor such into your thoughts & decisions. 

Hopefully you'll get a lot of advice to pick through.

Good luck.

Ray. 

Nottingham UK

--
--
Visit our website: http://www.ciderworkshop.com

You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Cider Workshop"  Google Group.
By joining the Cider Workshop, you agree to abide by our principles. Please see http://www.ciderworkshop.com/resources_principles.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Cider Workshop" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cider-workshop/8254ae49-9693-476c-a358-049f66adc362o%40googlegroups.com.

[Andy Andy]

Thank you Dave and Ray.
I hope other will join the discussion.
Myself as an mechanical engineer I like to learn about this type of things. It is a good mind exercise even if it will stay as a paper project/blueprint.

[Marc Fuyà]

Hi there,

I think nobody mentioned this one, i bought it last year as my first apple mill and for the price (230 euros) I am more than happy! 

You need to be careful and avoid throwing too many apples at a time otherwise it can get stuck sometimes. But for the price…. I think its a good purchase.

https://www.wiltec.de/fruit-shredder-1100w-1-5ps-2800u-min.html

-- 
-- 
Visit our website: http://www.ciderworkshop.com
 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Cider Workshop" Google Group.
By joining the Cider Workshop, you agree to abide by our principles. Please see http://www.ciderworkshop.com/resources_principles.html
--- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Cider Workshop" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cider-workshop/86e4cfc2-633a-4d0f-a221-9aedc68b87can%40googlegroups.com.

[Andy Andy]

@Marc I will add wilted one as the painted option.

Could I ask other cider makers to reply with what they prefer in terms of the perfect cider mill, please?

Thank you.

[radfordgraham333]

I think the question about cost depends on if this is a serious hobby that you plan to do for years to come. 

If you plan on making cider for years to come then I would recommend spending the money on the speidel or zambelli/italian trumpet mill. My own experience with the speidel is that it is the (near) perfect apple grinder. Other than not being stainless steel, it grinds very quickly(dumping a bucket of apples at a time) and is very easy to clean. 

I definitely would not buy a paint model as the paint would most likely chip over time and cause problems. However this is an assumption. I have never owned a painted grinder. 

Also consider what is available to you locally as that can potentially save you hundreds of dollars. 

I had decided on the zambelli mill but then found a local supplier of the speidel that was much cheaper both in cost but also not paying shipping.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.

--
--
Visit our website: http://www.ciderworkshop.com

You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Cider Workshop"  Google Group.
By joining the Cider Workshop, you agree to abide by our principles. Please see http://www.ciderworkshop.com/resources_principles.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Cider Workshop" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cider-workshop/8254ae49-9693-476c-a358-049f66adc362o%40googlegroups.com.

[Andy Andy]

Graham how much did you paid for the speidel, please?

[radfordgraham333]

It was about 1350$ CAD plus tax. I bought it at a place close to my home so I was able to drive and pick it up and save on shipping cost. There is a different distributor near me also that sells it for over 1900$ plus tax!, and I'm very glad I bought mine where I did. 

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.

-------- Original message --------

From: Andy Andy <rootr...@gmail.com>

Date: 2020-09-04 11:12 AM (GMT-05:00)

To: Cider Workshop <cider-w...@googlegroups.com>

--
--
Visit our website: http://www.ciderworkshop.com

You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Cider Workshop"  Google Group.
By joining the Cider Workshop, you agree to abide by our principles. Please see http://www.ciderworkshop.com/resources_principles.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Cider Workshop" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cider-workshop/a136e4fb-4551-43a5-9833-aab08edddb2co%40googlegroups.com.

[MARTIN CAMPLING]

On Thursday, September 3, 2020 at 7:06:55 PM UTC+1 dpe...@googlemail.com wrote:

 weirdly coincidental timing with your thread, as I've just been through the mill on this one (if you'll pardon the pun) and taken delivery of one of these, this very afternoon:

https://www.pressfruit.co.uk/product/worktop-electric-apple-mill-ese-055/ 

Around £500. I think I got the last one in Europe (they're made in Latvia). It'll be a month or so before I see if it meets expectations, but thought process as follows:

If you don't mind me saying, that looks rather expensive for such a small mill. 

I've been happy with my "Fruit Shark" for many years, processing 2.5 - 3 tonnes of fruit on my own.

https://www.pressfruit.co.uk/product/fruit-shark-electric-apple-mill/

Cheers,

    Martin

[Ray Blockley]

I imported a Vares Fruit Shark direct from Czechoslovakia in the late '90s before the UK importer had been set up.

Great little machine - I totally agree with Martin. 

Rose Grant of Cider By Rosie, Dorset used one too for a number of years. 

"Ours" is still going strong, now on it's 3rd owner. 

I modified it by adding a plastic "chute" held on the top with wingnuts & the "bucket" was swapped for a larger rectangular lidded "storage box" from IKEA which meant you could mill more fruit in one go & needed less "accuracy" when feeding it apples. 

Ray.

--

--
Visit our website: http://www.ciderworkshop.com
 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Cider Workshop" Google Group.
By joining the Cider Workshop, you agree to abide by our principles. Please see http://www.ciderworkshop.com/resources_principles.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Cider Workshop" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cider-workshop/3b02e72d-c79b-4665-8d4d-1a3215ad1f81n%40googlegroups.com.

[Andy Andy]

Hi Martin,

Dave exposed all the aspects of his decision like space, working position and quality of the pomace. I think it is better not to challenge anyone decisions.
We can discuss facts features and costs.

Thanks.

[Max Nowell ( Steilhead Cider)]

We've used the stainless trumpet mill from Vigo for years - totally reliable and very effective.  It's probably done getting on for 80 tonnes of apples, never even had its blades sharpened, gets precious little care or maintenance, the spindle seal did fall apart but I bodged one with some silicone and 10mm of 18mm diameter braided hose and it is fine! 101% recommended!

[dave pert]

Don't mind at all, all part of the fun :-) 

I originally tried to get the ESE-055 from latvia, works out about £50 cheaper. They informed me that the last one in Europe was at pressfruit.co.uk so I went there. I confess there was a moment when I had the ESE, the Shark and the Vigo stainless trumpet on the same page, at around the same price point an I thought, "Ok, which one?".

So depends what you mean by smaller. Shark certainly takes up more floor-space, and the Vigo is taller (a full arms-length for safety reasons). 

In terms of throughput, ESE quotes 400-600kg/hr, Shark says 100kg/hr (though I'm sure I've seen 400-600kg/hr quoted elsewhere), Vigo doesn't quote a figure, but'd guess that it's reasonably equivalent. So a draw on that front.

For motor size, the ESE is the smallest (by a factor of about 3) but, as I said, I suspect that grating is a lot more energy efficient than pulverising mid-air. But we'll see... Interestingly, the ESE is the only one to name a motor manufacturer, Neri Motori. They seem to be well enough respected, and a lot of what comes up on ebay is ex-MOD spares-never-used. Which suggests they're good enough for the military, and don't habitually break before they have a surplus of spares. But this doesn't make the other motors bad.

But is was the ergonomics that won it hands down for me. Both the VIgo and Shark, by merit of their designs, dictate your process to a degree - working heights, size of vessels used, that sort of thing. The Shark put me off with its (very small) proprietary pomace bin, which adds a couple of "waste steps" to your process (switching it off, decanting into something else, etc), which irks  me as someone who's been on a few Lean Process Improvement courses. It also dictates a knee-level working height, which I don't think I'd enjoy.  I grew up in the North Isles of Scotland, and spent a year or two working in fish factories in my early 20s. We worked on production lines, doing 12 hour shifts which sometimes turned into 15 hour shifts. When you do that, and are handling 7 or 8kg salmon several times a minute you soon realise that a few extra inches of lifting here and there make the difference between some aches and pains and a full-blown injury, so (personally) I've come to really resent any form of physical process inefficiency. But that's just me. Possibly part of the reason I'm drawn to the ESE is that it reminds me of the no-nonsense industrial kit we used in the factories. It looks like you could just switch it on and pour a bucket of water down the throat at the end of the day and it would do 90% of the cleaning itself. But, again, we'll see.

So I don't think any of them are cheap, but they're all fairly equivalent in terms of what they do. Depends if you equate value as getting more "stuff", or getting just what you need. The powder-coated frame and plastic bin on the Shark don't really interest me, take those away and the "business ends" look fairly equivalent in size. When you consider that you're over £200 for a manual mill that will produce anything approaching an acceptable pomace, they're potentially all reasonable value.

But I'm aware that the ESE-055 is still a bit of an unknown quantity, which makes me something of a trailblazer/pioneer/idiot. I scrumped about 100kg of Katys yesterday, so should be able to share a video/review with the group in a couple of weeks to expand collective knowledge.

[Nick at Ciderniks]

Dave,

I had a Fruit Shark for many years and found it great and reliable. I got round the pomace container bit by milling straight into a plasterer's bath which then gives plenty of room to shovel the pomace out into buckets to load the press

Life is now a bit easier with a Voran WALC, but a slightly different price bracket

Nick Edwards
Ciderniks – Cider from Kintbury
Kingston Black - Winner of CAMRA South of England Cider Competition 2015

E-mail: ni...@ciderniks.com
Telephone: +44 (0)7885 296789
Website: www.ciderniks.com
Online shop: shop.ciderniks.com
Twitter: @ciderniks    Facebook: Ciderniks

This message, and any attachment, is confidential and intended solely for the person to whom it is addressed. It may contain privileged information.  If you are not the intended recipient, you must not copy, distribute, discuss or take any action in reliance on it. If you have received this information in error, please notify me as soon as possible. Thank you.

--

--
Visit our website: http://www.ciderworkshop.com
 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Cider Workshop" Google Group.
By joining the Cider Workshop, you agree to abide by our principles. Please see http://www.ciderworkshop.com/resources_principles.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Cider Workshop" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cider-workshop/3604070b-8723-4c7a-bfd4-1de0b7e775b9n%40googlegroups.com.

[dave pert]

I AM NOT RUBBISHING THE FRUIT SHARK,

 just saying it's not for me. Really don't see how the ESE-055 is a remotely controversial choice. If it had been around at the time you bought your shark, would you not even have considered it?

[Wayne Bush]

Andy since you've asked others to get in the discussion, I'll volunteer that I bought a Spiedel a couple of years ago and I love it--a great piece of equipment with a capacity that will allow my production to grow.  I actually built a small platform about 30 inches high for it to sit on, so that a large pulp bin on rollers can slide directly under the spout.  I can then roll pulp bins in and out from under it.  I have a small step ladder next to it and bucket the apples into it from the wash bin.  I bought it at Brouwland, which currently has it on their web site for 850 euros including VAT.   I'm sure you would not regret the purchase.  

[Andy Andy]

Thanks Wayne,

Is something you don't like at the Speidel? If you have to upgrade what it will be?

[Tom Bugs]

Yes, I got one like the Wiltec a few years ago (think off UK ebay) - ordered a painted one (as cheaper) but they sent a stainless one!
It's lasted fine for a few years highish hobby levels though, as noted, the funnel does tend to get clogged if you pour too many apples/pears in.

[Andy Andy]

You were lucky. Maybe for a very small amount of apples a painted one is good but for large amounts I think there is a risk of contamination. I mean I have seen how the juice eats concrete maybe same think can do to paint in time even if it is electrostatically applied. Do you remember how much did you pay for it?

Thanks.

[John B, Bath]

I have had the yellow Speidel for 5 years or so now. I can't really fault it. I do about 800 litres of cider per year, so approaching 1.5 tonnes of fruit. Have turned the blades round once (they are sharp on both sides) and this year I think I will re-sharpen them. I bought a couple of HDPE plasterers' baths from Travis Perkins and they slide right underneath while holding the right amount of pomace for my press. I found it hard to get the blades properly clean until I invested in a 30mm spanner and can now disassemble the blades etc for a proper wash each time. The one downside is the need to lift large crates to chest height.

[Ian Shields]

I would concurr regarding the Fruit Shark I have had mine for probably 10 years and it has worked faultlessly, I bought a set of new blades when I bought it but have never yet felt the need to replace them. I think it claims to be able to grind 1 ton per hour which I think it could but my process does not require that. I probably use 3 or 4 tons of apples per season.

Ian

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cider-workshop/CAO7CN4kr%3D2LPwvM964w6GwwLBA3Mb3qkm6yxxUy7FM9HWCUCDg%40mail.gmail.com.

[Andy Andy]

I can see that Fruit Shark history goes way back, who is producing it?

Thanks.

[Ray Blockley]

Vares. Czech company. Used to be able to import direct as I did. Now I believe you have to use a UK importer (£££). 

Worth checking out though? 
 http://www.vares.cz/product/fruit-shark-16-fruit-shredder-16-kw-3453/

Ray

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cider-workshop/1c39f0cc-9d0a-40b7-b743-be96ccae9a5en%40googlegroups.com.

[Duncan Hewitt]

I have the Megalodon and it's brilliant. Pouring buckets in would give me the occasional blockage, but pouring slowly it works well. It's solid, and I like the fact it uses stainless steel rather than plastic for the chute - should last forever. I only bought it as the Speidel had sold out a couple of years ago, but I'm glad I did.

Get BlueMail for Android

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cider-workshop/CAO7CN4%3DganytTUL-2qzqyj6SUuX9xSKDJkQL0o9KD0JB%2B_ic%2Bg%40mail.gmail.com.

[dave pert]

Hi all, update on the ESE-055. Used it a couple of times now and pretty happy with the results. Here's a video of me chucking some apples through it, 16kg or thereabouts:

https://youtu.be/ylsVb15qTEE 

possibly a contender for the most boring video on YouTube, though if you stick around til the end there's a shot of the pomace, which is very fine, though presses really well ( though might upgrade my net curtain press-cloth up to some 80% windbreak fabric)

Observations:

 - Motor (.55kw) easily up to the job, doesn't struggle or slow, even when putting big cookers through. built in cooling blows air over the heat-sink fins. Even after running for 15 minutes casing barely warm

-  Fabrication quality good, casing well fabricated, welds well finished. Really quick and easy to strip down
- Capacity good. In the vid I chuck around 16kg through it in about 2.45, which works out about 350kg an hour. If apples were thrown in faster it could do more. More than enough for the foreseeable for me

- Cleaning - strips down easily in a couple of minutes. You can also pour a bucket of water down it whilst running, which take 90% of the crud out first.

so, basically, I'm happy. Couple of downers:

- froth does emerge through the casing over time, but no big deal. Should be easy enough to make a seal out of the stuff you buy to protect the edges of car doors

- Blade a bit thin, sheet metal less that 1.0mm. Ahem.... the only reason I mention this is due to an incident which was entirely my own stupid fault.... never scrump apples that have landed anywhere near gravel.... so a small stone, about 15-20mm had been absorbed by an apple which fell onto it. Made a noise like a machine gun for a couple of seconds until I shut it off. In those couple of seconds it had wreaked havoc on the thin metal blade. Shiny new thing/broken/panic/etc. But I managed to sort it out by returning the grater teeth to their previous shape using a screwdriver, resharpening using a dremel, and truing once back on the shaft. Less than an hour's downtime,  if a bit of an emotional rollercoaster. As good as new now.

So I'm pretty happy. Pomace good, low power consumption, faster than I am. Just don't put stones in it...

Maybe at the end of the season we can have a thread where we see which scratter is best at gravel...

[Andy Andy]

Wow very useful Dave. Very good pictures. Happy scattering :).

[Steve OConnor]

I also have a Speidel....cannot fault it.

On Thursday, 3 September 2020 at 20:28:09 UTC+2 raymond...@gmail.com wrote:

Hi Andy.

We've gone from food processor, to hand-powered, to electric mills. 5 in total over 2+ decades.

Currently we have the Spiedel yellow plastic model. 

My advice to everyone is the same: the mill is one of / if not _the_ most important part of the process to get a fine porridge-like consistency to ensure good juice release. 

So don't scrimp on whatever you decide upon.

A simple hand built press will be pretty amazing if you feed it pomace of the right consistency? 

In hindsight I wish we had gone for a mill with interchangeable screens to suit different apple / pear types - so if you are thinking long term, do factor such into your thoughts & decisions. 

Hopefully you'll get a lot of advice to pick through.

Good luck.

Ray. 

Nottingham UK

On Thu, 3 Sep 2020, 17:07 Andy Andy, <rootr...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello all,

I have a big curiosity in regards to the cost of a scatter/mill.
This is question for everybody so each answer is important.
As hobby/small/mid producers how much will you be willing to spend on a new apple mill(e.g. no more then £,€,$)? Also what are the features that you want to see on the "perfect" mill (e.g. size, material: stainless steel or painted, kg/hour, noise, method of feeding the apples)?

Thank you.

--
--
Visit our website: http://www.ciderworkshop.com

You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Cider Workshop"  Google Group.
By joining the Cider Workshop, you agree to abide by our principles. Please see http://www.ciderworkshop.com/resources_principles.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Cider Workshop" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cider-workshop/8254ae49-9693-476c-a358-049f66adc362o%40googlegroups.com.

[Taylog1]

I've been using a  Vigo Stainless Steel Electric 1.5kW Apple Mill which I've been happy with - good pomace and easy to use and clean.

Gareth  

[travi...@gmail.com]

If you're up for a little DIY project, you can motorize a manual scratter. I have this one, and I welded a chain-drive system to the shaft, powered by a 1hp electric motor. I built a hopper on top that easily fits a bushel. I press about a ton every summer and it's held up for 7 years so far. When all's said and done it costs somewhere around $500.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/TSM-Products-TSM-Stainless-Steel-Apple-Crusher-34130/303171874  

[John B, Bath]

One aspect of the design of the Speidel and similar devices is that the feed tube is 3-4 feet long for no other reason than to prevent anyone from physically being able to reach the spinning blades (in the event of a blockage or for any other reason) while it is in operation. It would be great to modify your design to incorporate this idea.

[Andy Andy]

Thanks John, yes safety feature is part of the design :).

[Andy Andy]

Hello all,

What is the diameter of the Vigo Trumpet Mill disc?

Thanks

[Taylog1]

if you mean this one, then the diameter of the disk is 17.6 cm, as best I can measure.

Gareth

[Andy Andy]

That is the one, thank you.