Degas Ice Cider

[Mike Rose]

My ice cider from last winter is starting to slow down (7 FSU). My last gravity reading required a little degassing, which made me wonder if I need to degas the finished ice cider before bottling. If so, what a common method?

I don't have filtering equipment and am relying on just racking up to this point. I was thinking I could rack to my bottling bucket and degas by stirring in there?

Any experience with this would be appreciated.

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Mike,
If you bottle at a FSU of 7, you will most likely get a sparkling ice cider. Not bad if this is what you want and if you use adequate bottles for this.
If you want still ice cider, I would suggest a stabilization racking at this stage, so the FSU is 0 at time of bottling.
Claude

[Mike Rose]

Yes. I do plan on bottling after it's been at 0 FSU for a while. I'm in no rush. I just don't want a lot of bubbles when it's poured. Will that not be an issue if I let it sit long enough?

[greg l.]

Dissolved co2 is a fault in red wine, hence the term "degas". It isn't a term used much in the industry because the processes of racking, filtering, fining etc tend to strip all the co2. Usually dissolved co2 will be the result of in-bottle mlf or something similar. In home winemaking it can be quite difficult to remove that last bit of co2 from red wine in a glass demijohn, techniques like paint stirrers and vacuum cleaners have been used.

Dissolved co2 isn't a fault in cider, even ice cider, so the term isn't applicable, you won't find it used on this forum. In any case there isn't any point until the end of fermentation, because fresh co2 is always being produced. "degas" is a term that has become popular on some internet forums for some reason. It has a very specific meaning which tends to get misunderstood.

Greg

[Mike Rose]

Any ice cider I've had pours silky smooth (like warm syrup) and flat with no foam. Judging from when I degassed my sample to take the gravity reading, it's going to foam a lot when poured. I would consider that a fault — as it's not what I want to achieve. :)

I think when the fermentation is done and it's rested for an additional month I'm just going to rack it into a larger carboy to splash/stir it around a little and then rack into my bottling bucket.

Thanks,

Mike

[Claude Jolicoeur]

I have never tried this, it is an idea - you may do whatever you want with it!
I have a small hand vacuum pump - this was bought with a filtering kit, permitting to make a vacuum in the receiving container and thus make the filtering more rapid. Such hand pumps are not expensive, and fitting a vacuum pump on the top of the carboy, you would reduce the partial pressure of the CO2 gas on top of the cider, and hence force the dissolved CO2 to go to gaseous form and escape the cider.
I have no idea how long it would take before you can eliminate a substantial fraction of the dissolved CO2 this way. But it would have the advantage of not having to splash the cider and cause oxydation.
See http://cynmar.com/ProductDetail/VAC54175_Hand-Vacuum-Pump-Wsingle-Gauge-In-Hg-Fits-14-Tubing
Claude

[greg l.]

It takes quite a bit of co2 to cause foaming. I would have thought that after fermentation finishes it would only take a few weeks under airlock to lose that much co2. It is the last little bit that prickles your mouth that is hard to get rid of.

Thanks for the link Claude, I have googled that sort of thing before without luck. Now to see if I can get one in Australia.

Greg

On Saturday, 13 June 2015 00:54:31 UTC+10, Mike Rose wrote:

[77grundy]

I was just wondering the same thing today about degassing when racking my ice cider. I noticed that there were a lot of bubbles forming from only very slight agitation when racking. My FSU is down to around 4, and so I'm thinking I will leave it a while longer to see if I can get it to stop completely. Hopefully this latest racking will do it, and in the meantime it is back in the fridge at 5C.
I did take a small sample into a bottle which I will leave at room temperature for a while to monitor how stable it really is.
Would be interested to hear how you are getting on now that it is one month on.

[Claude Jolicoeur]

For an ice cider you really need to make sure your FSU is down to 0 before bottling. Also, this should be tested at around 10C - if you have 4 FSU at 5C this is still quite high.
Hopefully, as you say, this racking will kill it, but you need to check it again in about a month. The idea to leave a small bottle at higher Temp is a good one...
You have to be very patient when doing ice cider this way!
Claude

[77grundy]

 

Re-tested the SG of my ice cider at the weekend and it had been stable at 1.065 since 15th July at 5C. So, I brought it inside for a day to warm up and check again for fermentation, and after 24 hrs inside at 20C there were obvious signs (bubbles) it had started up again with some fury. I didn't retest the SG, but put back at 5C which seems to have slowed/stopped the activity again.

My question is what do people recommend I do with it? It has been racked maybe 4 or 5 times already, and I suspect that another racking is not going to cut it seeing how vigourously it started up again. Would pasteurisation be my only guaranteed way to stop it now, and is that recommended to do with an ice cider? I'm worried that pasteurisation with this much residual sugar will make it taste too cooked. Any ideas?

Thanks.

[Terry Rayner]

What’s your pH, free SO2 level and volume.

 

Terry.

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[77grundy]

 

Hi Terry.

pH - don't know as I don't have any strips. I suspect the T.A was around 6.5 in the original apples. I didn't test it specifically, but my batches of non-ice cider made with the same apples were all around this.

SO2 - I didn't add any sulphite, so presumably zero.

volume - around 3 gallons.

Thanks.

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Seeing bubbles in the airlock when a cider is warmed rapidly doesn't necessarily indicate fermentation. In effect, heating will do 2 things:
- increase the volume of the cider by thermal expansion - this will expell some gaz present in the free head space volume of the carboy.
- decrease the solubility of the CO2. You can probably assume your cider is currently saturated with CO2. Heating it makes some of the CO2 to go into gaseous form and be exhausted by the airlock

Once the cider has well stabilized at its new temperature - and this will take a few days - you can then evaluate if the bubble activity in the airlock is simply a transient effect, or if it is a sustained fermentation effect.

Claude

[Terry Rayner]

aside from Claude’s suggestions without any SO2 and no current methods of removing any yeast you are running a risk of a refermentation. There is a small amount of sulfite produced during ferment but without knowing the current pH and free SO2 levels it’s a guess as to how stable your sweet cider will be. Do you a means of sterile filtration i.e. 0.45 micron absolute.

Terry

 

From: 77grundy

Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2015 10:23 AM

To: Cider Workshop

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[77grundy]

 

Claude - Yes, perhaps it was just CO2 coming out of solution, I hadn't thought of that. I was worried though that if it was the fermentation started up again it would drop its SG very quickly at that temperature. Perhaps I shall try again to warm it up and closely monitor the SG.

 

I should have mentioned in the earlier post, I did take out a small test bottle and brought it up to room temp in July. Initially a few bubbles were noticable, which I off-gassed by just opening the lid briefly. After that it appeared stable for about another month, after which I drank it and it was very tasty. I didn't measure the SG at the time but I think there had been no further fermentation, since there was no carbonation or further sediment. So perhaps the dissolved CO2 idea is correct.

 

Terry - No I don't have any means of filtration.

 

[Nicholas Bradstock]

Degas' Ice Cider....

A newly discovered masterpiece I gas - sorry, guess.....

iPhone

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[Michael Thierfelder]

Claude,

I have an ice cider that I'll be putting into wine bottles with corks. It's been aging in bourbon barrels for about 2 months, and aged in plastic drums for four months before that. All signs of fermentation seem to have stopped.

I'm wondering if it's recommended to pasteurize at this point? Or is it safe enough to not worry about refermentation since its at about 15% abv?

Mike
Woodbox Cider

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le samedi 23 juillet 2016 12:28:27 UTC-4, Michael Thierfelder a écrit :

Claude,

I have an ice cider that I'll be putting into wine bottles with corks. It's been aging in bourbon barrels for about 2 months, and aged in plastic drums for four months before that. All signs of fermentation seem to have stopped.  

Did you take SG measurements? Has SG changed?
Your word "seem" certainly isn't a good enough criteria - you need to be "sure".
 

I'm wondering if it's recommended to pasteurize at this point?

Or is it safe enough to not worry about refermentation since its at about 15% abv?

 

Since I didn't take SG measurements myself, I can't say for sure... It is certainly safer to pasteurize.
Claude

[michael thierfelder]

I have a standard hydrometer that I use to check SG, it’s not very sensitive and I can’t seem to find another that has a finer range for the higher gravity (1.050-1.060), just the finishing ones.  What do you use for taking small incremental readings?

Looking into pasteurization, I’d like to use wine bottles with corks but have heard that this causes it’s own set of problems.  When heated, the liquid expands and pushes the cork out.  If you cork after pasteurization when the liquid is hot, it can suck the cork into the bottle as it cools.

Is there a method for pasteurizing using wine/cork bottles? or do I need to get crown caps or champagne bottles to do what I need to do here?

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[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le mardi 26 juillet 2016 12:28:09 UTC-4, Michael Thierfelder a écrit :

I have a standard hydrometer that I use to check SG, it’s not very sensitive and I can’t seem to find another that has a finer range for the higher gravity (1.050-1.060), just the finishing ones.  What do you use for taking small incremental readings?

For ice cider, I use this hydrometer:
http://cynmar.com/specific-gravity-hydrometer-jars/18113-HYDROMETERPLAINSG1050-TO-1100-ASTM.html
It has a range from 1.050 to 1.100, with 0.0005 graduations. I always also take a temperature reading to make appropriate correction.
This gives me enough precision to be sure there is no more fermentation going on when I bottle.
 

Looking into pasteurization, I’d like to use wine bottles with corks but have heard that this causes it’s own set of problems.  When heated, the liquid expands and pushes the cork out.  If you cork after pasteurization when the liquid is hot, it can suck the cork into the bottle as it cools.

Is there a method for pasteurizing using wine/cork bottles? or do I need to get crown caps or champagne bottles to do what I need to do here?

For my part, I have never used pasteurisation. But I agree that what you describe may be problematic.

This could explain why sterile filtration is more often used by the commercial producers of ice ciders...
Claude