Yeast recommendations for Ice cider
Melanie Wilson
a go at fermenting in Jan in a barn !
Thanks
Mel
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Nick at Ciderniks
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Nick
Nick
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Nick at Ciderniks
Do you think ice cider is a good idea for a family with an apparent prediliction to get stuck on anything cold? How embarrassed will your daughter be dragging a barrel of fermenting cider behind her to school?
Could make some interesting photos for the website!
N
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Melanie Wilson wrote:
Melanie Wilson
>Do you think ice cider is a good idea for a family with an apparent prediliction to get stuck on anything cold?
Dries Muylaert
Mark Shirley
> have
> a go at fermenting in Jan in a barn !
>
> Thanks
>
> Mel
>
As an aside Mel, I notice that Simon Day of Once Upon A Tree has launched a
Blenheim Orange Ice Cider this weekend. See here:
http://www.onceuponatree.co.uk/images/Once%20Upon%20A%20Tree%20-%20Press%20release%20Oct%2009.pdf
Mark
http://rockinghamforestcider.moonfruit.com/
http://rockinghamforestcider.blogspot.com/
jez....@btinternet.com
I am not sure how this could work either for apples or in the UK. Especially when our winters are getting warmer! Is lots of sugar involved?
Jez
Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device
Mark Shirley
> which is made in Canada from grapes that are left to develop noble rot on
> the vine and freeze and picked in the winter (I have seen some pictures of
> teams of people out picking mid winter and in the dark... Brrrr!
>
> I am not sure how this could work either for apples or in the UK.
> Especially when our winters are getting warmer! Is lots of sugar involved?
>
> Jez
I wouldn't have thought so Jez. The whole point of Ice Wine/Cider is
intensely concentrated flavour, and sweetness of course. Adding bucketfuls
of sugar will acheive the latter but result in a thin drink I would think.
Once Upon A Tree are quite an ambitious new company, and I wouldn't be at
all surprised if they had access to a large freezer for the apples.
I was interested in the choice of Blenheims, a rich tasting, well balanced
variety which seems to me to be a very good choice for this style of cider.
Incidentally, I tried a bottle of their Marcle Ridge cider last night, and
found it excellent. Properly dry, a nice blend of tannin and acidity, dare I
say it, very similar to our own.... Not that I'm putting ours in the same
league, it's just I like this style of cider. In comparison to the identikit
supermarket offerings, it's on a completely different level. Maybe one of
the more advernturous supermarket buyers would like to take a punt on some
of this.
jez....@btinternet.com
The bit I am most struggling with is the noble rot - something that happens to grapes but I am not so sure about apples. Its having the right kind of rot that helps the ice wine flavours.
Maybe it isn't needed in apples? Or maybe the choice of apples replaces the need for it
Jez
Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device
-----Original Message-----
From: "Mark Shirley" <marksh...@btinternet.com>
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 09:01:36
To: <cider-w...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [Cider Workshop] Re: Yeast recommendations for Ice cider
Dries Muylaert
cider is a cider fermented from a concentrated most, concentrated by
cryoconcentration (most left to freeze ice filtered out, sugar
remaining )or cryoextraction (apple left on the tree in winter
deshydrating, pressed when frozen. I think they call this one
snow-cider)
It's impossible to make snow cider without long periods of frost, but
you can freeze the apples after harvest. You couldn't call it proper
ice cider.
Ice cider by cryoconcentration can also be produced by non-natural
freezing. Wouldn't be a proper ice-cider but very close to the
original.
In both cases it's about concentrating the most. No fermentation takes
place before the concentration.
Imo you are talking about cold fermentation. A non concentrated most
is fermented under cold conditions, keeping more flavours. I would
advice to use Bayanus cold yeast, but believe it or not, fe. wild
yeasts will slowly continue working at 5° celcius. And I wouldn't let
the cider freeze. It can ruin the taste. And certainly not filter it
when thawing. You would than obtain apple jack, or at least a
concentrated most with higher alcohol content, including higher methyl
levels. Something like a bad tasting pommeau.
John W. List
>
> I am not sure how this could work either for apples or in the UK. Especially when our winters are getting warmer! Is lots of sugar involved?
to find anywhere cold enough here to do it. I'm sure Claude will laugh
at me here, but it really does get amazingly cold over there! As I
understand it they let the apples freeze rock hard on the tree and
leave them there until harvest around Christmas. By comparison I've
stood in the orchard here around Christmas on a day about as cold as
it gets in a UK winter - negative single figures, frost everywhere -
and picked a completely unfrozen French Crab to eat. I'm sure my
Christmas French crab would make a good cider, but without a bit of
help from a deep freeze I think it would be fairly conventional.
JWL
Melanie Wilson
Also illegal in the UK & other places as it effectivly distills the alcohol
(unsafely)
Melanie Wilson
I think the original is eiswein , from Germany . I'm afraid I don't touch
nasty New World wines (hope there are no New World wine producers here ;)) .
Eiswine is not , I believe, greatly affected by nobel rot (or should not
be).
>I am not sure how this could work either for apples or in the UK.
>Especially when our winters are getting warmer!
I think to do it properly first one needs an apple that stays on the tree
until the frosts come, I think, there are several that do & after the first
frosts I'll be seeking them out. But I'm also cheating & freezing juice in
a freezer.
Last winter was one of the coldest for a while. So should have been a good
year to try it !
Claude Jolicoeur
> As an aside Mel, I notice that Simon Day of Once Upon A Tree has launched a
I had a look at the "Once Upon A Tree" press release - interesting to
do that in the UK! However, I wonder why they said "techniques
borrowed from icewine production" - to me it looks more like
techniques borrowed from ice cider production.
OK now, since there has been a few questions about the subject, let's
have a few precisions about ice cider...
First, you need real cold, like -20C
The stories about leaving the apples in the trees until harvest in
January is now pretty folkloric. No one would think about doing that
on a large scale because the fact that the apples will stay on the
tree is unreliable, and at the most maybe 25% of the apples will still
be on the tree by the time of harvest. But it has been done that way
in a small scale in the past.
Now, the apples (need to be very late varieties) are harvested at
maturity and kept in aerated bins in the outside until February or
March. By then they will have been through cycles of deep freezing /
thawing plus evaporation. Then, if pressed still partially frozen, the
apples will yield a juice of extremely high SG (over 1.100). The
cidermaker then manages to make a fermentation that has to stop around
1.025 to yield a sweet cider. In reality, I guess they kill the
fermentation at a certain SG.
I don't know if formal keeving is used for ice cider, but it would
certainly be a great way to do it. Actually I once met the owner of
one of the main ice cider cidrerie of Quebec. It just happend that I
had with me a bottle of keeved (naturally very sweet, bottled at SG
1.023, but no concentration by freezing) cider that I had made - this
guy tasted it and was really sort of shocked because it was actually
better than his ice cider... just as rich and sweet, although mine had
less alcohol.
So, ice cider is a nice thing, but the price is high (exorbitent,
actually, in my opinion - and the 15.95 pounds for the 375 ml of ice
cider from Once Upon A Tree is in the same range)... A good keeve can
give you a stuff just as good!
Claude
Melanie Wilson
borrowed from icewine production" - to me it looks more like
techniques borrowed from ice cider production.
Snob value at a guess, cider equals yokels, eiswein is an upper end dessert
wine.
>First, you need real cold, like -20C
The stories about leaving the apples in the trees until harvest in
January is now pretty folkloric.
It would be interesting to know if the Canadian Ice Cider is the only one ?
It seems rare a thing has not been tried before even on a small scale
somewhere.
>No one would think about doing that
on a large scale because the fact that the apples will stay on the
tree is unreliable, and at the most maybe 25% of the apples will still
be on the tree by the time of harvest.
I beg to differ somewhat here, a friend is very interested in late
harvesting apples and reports some cultivars (chance seedlings in the main)
which retain the majority of the crop, esp if protected from birds. No god
on a large commercial scale is probably correct though.
>But it has been done that way
in a small scale in the past.
Do you know where ? or When ?
I know of people freezing apple to save milling, which is a kind of ice
cider !
>So, ice cider is a nice thing, but the price is high
One reason to play around with it ourselves I suppose :)
Claude Jolicoeur
> It would be interesting to know if the Canadian Ice Cider is the only one ?
> It seems rare a thing has not been tried before even on a small scale
> somewhere.
> I beg to differ somewhat here, a friend is very interested in late
> harvesting apples and reports some cultivars (chance seedlings in the main)
> which retain the majority of the crop, esp if protected from birds.
before hard freezes. For the apple to remain in the tree, it has to be
caught in a hard freeze before it had the time to fully ripen. So it
all depends of the date of the first hard freezes vs the full maturity
date of the apple - and this will vary from year to year. Well, maybe
if I tried to grow Granny Smith, I guess it would pretty reliably stay
in the tree as it is so late, but it would never get ripe, so it
wouldn't make a very good ice cider anyway.
> >But it has been done that way in a small scale in the past.
>
> Do you know where ? or When ?
in winter, but as soon as commercial production started, they had to
find other more reliable ways...
Also, some do the ice cider by freezing the juice and removing the ice
- but this would yield a "cheaper" ice cider. There has been talks to
forbid the name "ice cider" for that process, but I don't know if this
is now enforced.
Claude
Melanie Wilson
before hard freezes. For the apple to remain in the tree, it has to be
caught in a hard freeze before it had the time to fully ripen. So it
all depends of the date of the first hard freezes vs the full maturity
date of the apple - and this will vary from year to year.
The ones I'm thinking of (in the UK) stay on past Dec, some to March, in
some cases I've seen pictures of apples and blossom. I think it might be
some mutation that holds them on the tree, I imagine it is in the trees best
interests for the apples to fall & get spread around.(other apple species
are more bird dispersed though )
I'm not that familiar with them I'm afraid & how ripe they might be at any
particular time.
Which is after our coldest times which around here tend to be Jan/Feb. Not
that we get as cold as many parts of Canada, but in past years plenty cold
enough to freeze apples I feel sure. Absolutly no idea if they would make
good cider though ! If I get a chance & we get some decent frosts I might
try. I imagine a UK Ice cider will differ from a Canadian ice cider due to
all the variables.
>The first trials here in Quebec (ca 1990) were done picking the apples
in winter, but as soon as commercial production started, they had to
find other more reliable ways...
Ah I thought you meant a bit further in the past.
Denis et Jane
Being in the apple region of Quebec where most ice cider is produced, I had
the chance to visit the two biggest ones. So the three ways are:
1- leaving the apples on the tree until January and pressing them still
frozen. I was told once that the producer spray some kind of hormone for
the apple to stay on the tree longer. But I only go from memory.
2- The apples are picked and left in boxes. They are actually stored, and
brought outside in January. Then they are pressed when frozen
3- The apples are picked when ripe, then pressed, the juice is kept in bins
and taken outside in January to freeze. Once frozen, the juice is harvest
when thawing process starts.
Depending on the producer, all three types may be used. All three are
accepted for ice cider. There is even a producer that has a special weekend
in January when general public is invited to pick frozen apples with
snowshoes (cheap labor if you ask me :) ).
You can also see along the road, trees full of apples with a sign :
'Reserved for ice cider, do not pick'.
There are close to 50 different producers of ice cider in Quebec.
Unfortunately, a good conventional cider is hard to get by. Most of the
'other' cider in Quebec is still cider, flat with no taste.
Denis
Hinchinbrooke, Quebec
-----Original Message-----
From: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:cider-w...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Claude Jolicoeur
Sent: 25 octobre 2009 15:36
To: Cider Workshop
Subject: [Cider Workshop] Re: Yeast recommendations for Ice cider
Melanie Wilson
Unfortunately, a good conventional cider is hard to get by. Most of the
'other' cider in Quebec is still cider, flat with no taste.
Is the ice cider any good or is it more of a novelty drink, I wonder ? Or
jus different from traditional cider eg more wine like ?
John W. List
> January is now pretty folkloric. No one would think about doing that
> on a large scale because the fact that the apples will stay on the
> tree is unreliable, and at the most maybe 25% of the apples will still
> be on the tree by the time of harvest. But it has been done that way
> in a small scale in the past.
http://www.domainepinnacle.com/int/images/banner3.jpg
http://www.domainepinnacle.com/int/images/banner4.jpg
http://www.domainepinnacle.com/int/images/banner4.jpg
http://www.appleicewine.com/cidredeglace_en.html
http://www.appleicewine.com/medias_en.html
http://www.cidrerievergerpetit.com/FR/images/entete_img.jpg
As you can see, frozen apples on trees feature prominently. The ice
cider equivalent of putting a picture of a horse powered apple mill on
the bottle. :)
Fair enough, it does make a striking image for what is a rather fine
product.
Claude, do you happen to know whether any producers in BC make ice
cider? All the ones I've found have been Quebecquois.
JWL
Jez Howat
website... touching.
I think a couple have touched on a pretty valid point about all this (apart
from trying to make cider the new wine). Surely this is Apple wine, not
cider at all. After all, its wine equivalent is a desert wine (and I have to
say the Canadian ice wine is delicious if not similarly expensive!).
Anyway. Time to keep an open mind I guess?!
Jez
Melanie Wilson
cider at all.
I must have missed why that is ?
JezH
> I must have missed why that is ?
>
Isn't there a cut off point - where cider becomes apples wine? Maybe
its just semantics (although it would make the 'ice cider' concept
more of a marketing ploy than a real goal). Certainly, as far as HMRC
are concerned the cut off point is 8.5%
Maybe I am now just confusing myself!
Jez
JezH
curious that the website is advertising 'Ice wine' - see below for the
definition:
From http://www.appleicewine.com/cidredeglace_en.html:
“Ice Cider,” or the cider obtained from the fermentation of the juice
of apples, must attain a pre-fermentation sugar concentration of at
least 30 degrees Brix by natural cooling alone, and the finished
product must attain a residual sugar content of at least 130 grams per
litre as well as an acquired alcoholic content of more than 7%, up to
a maximum of 13% per volume.
Furthermore, the following specific requirements must be met:
1. No chaptalization.
2. No added alcohol.
3. During the production of the ice cider, the use of artificial
cooling is only permitted for purposes of malic precipitation and only
if the temperature is not lower than -4°C.
4. No artificial flavours or colours.
5. Ice cider producers must cultivate the apples required for the
production of this alcoholic drink and press the apples as well as
carry out the subsequent steps in the production process at their own
facility. However, holders of a manufacturer’s license can produce ice
cider using a maximum of 50% of apples that they did not grow.
6. Ice cider can be infused artificially with carbon dioxide
provided that the volume of dissolved carbon dioxide per volume of
finished product is 1.5 to 2.5 or 3.5 to 5.5.
7. The present regulation came into effect on December 4, 2008,
with the exception of article 14 (#5 above), which will come into
effect on December 4, 2009.
Nick Bradstock
off by heart):
The UK ABV upper limit for cider/perry as sold and as set down in ALDA 1979
- ie: for HMRC to control - is 'LESS THAN 8.5% ABV'.
If you hit 8.5% then the product is apple/pear wine AND THE 70hl EXEMPTION
NO LONGER APPLIES and ALL your volume is dutiable at the full n.e.15% ABV
wine rate - currently £214.02 per hl.
If it exceeds 8.4% ABV (HMRC allows truncation and so you could go to 8.49%)
in stock, or what you give away, that's OK but if it's SOLD at 8.5% or more
then it's apple/pear wine.
If there's any dispute, the official distillation method of analysis
applies.
Mind you, you have to be investigated first....
BW
N
and to set the point (before
-----Original Message-----
From: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:cider-w...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of JezH
Sent: 26 October 2009 11:06
To: Cider Workshop
Subject: [Cider Workshop] Re: Yeast recommendations for Ice cider
Melanie Wilson
Didn't look at the alcohol content on which ones specifically ?
Strictly speaking wine can only be the product of fermented grape juice, if
you apply language correctly anything else isn't wine, although I'm never
quite sure what you then call your fermented blackberry juice etc. !
>Isn't there a cut off point - where cider becomes apples wine? Maybe
its just semantics
Probably :) My understanding is that historically cider is fermented pure
apple juice (I believe the french definition is juice with or without
addition of driniking water from the pamphlet Andrew scanned). But the
commercial UK beverages use cider as something else. HMRC's definition
includes an alcoholic percentage. But historically I don't know if that was
followed or if it was delibertly low like a small ale, as drunk as an
everyday thing.
>(although it would make the 'ice cider' concept
more of a marketing ploy than a real goal).
Here is a definition I found of Canadian Ice Cider
1. Definition and standards
Cidre de glace: drinks produced by the fermentation of apple juice, which
must have a concentration of sugar before fermentation made solely by the
natural cold of at least 30 Brix and whose product has a residual sugar
content of at least 130 grams per liter. Finally, the alcohol will be
obtained over 7% and less than 13% alcohol by volume. In addition, the
specifics must be met:
1.. no chaptalization;
2.. no addition of alcohol;
3.. no artificial apple juice or grape must;
4.. permission for artificial cold cider (-4 ° C) for malic precipitation;
5.. no additional flavors or colouring;
6.. no concentration of sugars by methods other than natural cold;
7.. no use of concentrated apple juice, regardless of origin, whatsoever;
8.. organoleptic profile of the product corresponds to that of an ice
cider as determined by a trade committee;
9.. the producer of ice cider cultivates the apples;
10.. the pressing, preparation and bottling of cider ice occur at the site
of production.
So the pure apple juice concept of cider seems to be met, but not HMRC's
definition of alcohol ?
Then again Once upon a tree's product differs again !
Who knows as rose by any other name & all that !
Nick Bradstock
To simplify the basic requirements of a very complex legal situation:
- The word 'wine' by itself is taken in the EU and world-wide to refer only
to the product of fermentation of the juice of fresh grapes with or without
the addition of distilled alcohol. This and other practices are defined for
us in EU regulation.
- Other fermented products either have their own names - like beer or cider
- or must use a name that accurately describes them. The word 'wine' may be
used but it must be directly qualified as in 'fruit wine' or 'Blackberry
Wine' or 'British Wine'. The labelling regulations here are currently under
examination but there is no reason to change this formula.
- There is no upper limit for ABV and the continued use of the term 'cider',
at least in the EU, but reduced excise levels can, by EU Directive, only
apply to products 'n.e. 8.5% ABV' (the UK definition in ALDA of 'less
then...' is anomalous but is acceptable).
- Chaptalisation and the addition of potable water are permitted practices
for all fermented beverages- even, in some case, wine of fresh grapes.
Hope this helps
Nick
-----Original Message-----
From: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:cider-w...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Melanie Wilson
Sent: 26 October 2009 12:15
To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [Cider Workshop] Re: Yeast recommendations for Ice cider
SimonDay
Glad to be making a little bit of a stir!
When we started Once Upon A Tree 2 years ago, I wanted to prove that I
could make top quality cider that was as good, if not better than wine
at a similar price point. My focus has been to make cider to accompany
food – to have a bottle that you could be proud to serve at a dinner
party, or just to enjoy throughout the week with supper.
I do enjoy a good farmhouse or more traditional style of cider, but I
felt it was a crowded market, and plenty of producers were already
making excellent examples, so I knew we had to do something
different.
We did the first two harvests under the 7000 litre limit. If we
didn’t manage to find interest in the products then we would have
quietly faded away, or carried on as a small sideline to our other
businesses, but instead we found the cider business taking over our
lives & this year have taken the plunge and will end up with around
30,000 - 35,000 litres to cope with demand.
From the start I drew from my experiences in winemaking, and wanted to
explore the potential for a dessert wine style of cider. As there is
no equivalent to noble rot, and using Tate & Lyle was never a good
option, I knew we had to remove water. This technique has been around
as a natural process in Eiswein in Germany, and can now be used to
enrich grape juice prior to fermentation to a small degree, and then I
found out that it was already being done in Canada and marketed as
“Ice Cider”.
Looking at the Canadian regulations, the only problem we have in the
UK is the lack of cold weather in the winter, so I used a local blast
freezer to replace the natural cold of a Canadian winter, and freezed
the juice of late harvested Blenheim Orange apples, that had been
stored until January (and subject to a little freeze-thaw of last
winter). The resultant concentrated juice had incredible flavour, and
during the long slow fermentation, I stopped it at 7.5%abv (I was
aiming for 8, but got a little nervous and stopped a little early!) so
that the product was still legally cider!
We launched this weekend and had a very good response from the public
at the Flavours of Herefordshire Food Festival, and found that
charging £15.95 was not a problem!
Just for the record and to answer the original question, I used EC1118
yeast, which did a great job – although I was concerned how I would
stop the ferment, which was only just getting going at 7.5%
I’ll be doing more again this year, and have another couple of
experiments on the go for other “new” wine technique, cider styles –
so watch this space!
All the best and happy pressing!
PS If you want to visit and have a taste, give me a call (01531
670263) or email: si...@onceuponatree.co.uk – you’ll be very welcome!
Melanie Wilson
Thanks for the yeast suggestion.
I think the wine type ciders are a style that will be popular in some areas.
I think I mentioned in another post that we were finding the more wine like
taste of dessert apples as cider very appealing.
Good luck with your market, for what its worth I think the styling you have
will appeal to the market you seem to be aiming at. niche marketing with
little competition, is the way to go for sure :)
My interest is really home brew rather than commercial, hence why I like
trying different things to vary the drinks I'm making.
BTW where are you ?
Mel
jez....@btinternet.com
Thanks for clearing that up - so at 7% its a cider and not a desert wine?! Will try to track some down...
All the best
Denis et Jane
type of wine. It is syrupy, rich, sweet with alcohol level from 7 up to 12%.
The product is very popular here. At least three producers are exporting
worldwide. It is no so popular in the UK I hear because of the price range.
Yes it is good, but you would not drink it out on a hot day, it is used as
dessert cider or with cheese. Some producers are starting to make ice perry
which I like better personally. But sadly, I haven't found in Québec a good
producer of conventional UK style cider unless Claude know someone. I have
to buy the Strong Bow or the Bulmer's once in a while.
Denis
-----Original Message-----
From: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:cider-w...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Melanie Wilson
Sent: 25 octobre 2009 19:52
To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [Cider Workshop] Re: Yeast recommendations for Ice cider