Effect of Low Temperature on Cider Quality

[Henry]

Evening all

I am wondering if temperatures of 7 to 10oC during fermentation will have any adverse effects on quality. 

The ambient temperature, during milling and pressing these past couple of weeks was such that the temperature of the juice was between 7 and 10oC in the 1000 litre IBCs.  I insulated the rooms and put heaters during night time and this seems to be having a positive impact, but the weather is set to get colder.  I am using cultured yeasts and 7 out of 9 are fermenting nicely, and 2 are almost complete after 2 weeks, although some took up to a week to initiate, and the last 2 should kick off in a day or 2.

I can't imagine there will be adverse effects on quality but thought it better to check.

best wishes

Henry

[Sean B]

Don't quite understand what your concern is Henry. Are you thinking that 7 -10 degrees was too cold, and so you insulated and heated? You shouldn't need to create a warm

environment for your juice to ferment.

 Our 800 ltrs is in a cold garage, pressed 6 weeks ago, 1048-50, got off like a rocket, has slowed down now and to be honest I welcome

the drop in temperatures. I don't envisage doing anything with it until at least Feb.

Sean

[Henry]

[Cheshire Matt]

General received wisdom is: cooler the better as it slows the fermentation
down. Slower ferments seem to allow mor flavour to develop. I normally aim
to be ready for bottiling 6months after pressing, and it improves from
there.

This year I've brought one fermenter indoors as someone need some cider,
regardless of quality. Nearly finished now, 5wks after pressing, and it
tastes very watery, bitter and yeasty. My view is certainly warmth and
speed of ferment are absolutely NOT what you're aiming for.

Patience!! Youl'll never be a cider maker without it.

[Henry]

Matt

So your cider is fermenting and maturing outdoors? Does that mean the temperature drifts down over the Winter to a little above freezing?  It certainly answers my question.

It was my understanding that temperatures below 10oC basically delayed the process without necessarily improving it but it seems its not that simple.

On Sunday, December 2, 2012 7:13:14 PM UTC+2, Cheshire Matt wrote:

General received wisdom is: cooler the better as it slows the fermentation

down. Slower ferments seem to allow more flavour to develop. I normally aim
to be ready for bottling 6months after pressing, and it improves from

[Cheshire Matt]

Yup. Just above 1degree C in the sheds today. And if it goes below
freezing, it'll freeze. As many folks on here will testify from couple
years back.

Yes, low temps do delay the process - it's a chemical reaction
basically: increase temp by 10degC, double rate of reaction - or
thereabouts, it's not an absolute science.

But question: do you really want to delay the process? (Or put another
way, why do you want to speed it up?)

Nothing in cider making is simple. Because there are so many variables,
it's difficult to hold the rest steady and vary the one to see what
effect it has.

Therefore, it's very much down to the environment it's made in,and
season after season of tweaks and experiments.

My "experiment" this year: I've separated off 60L of my main batch and
brought indoors. The main batch outside (at 1deg) is "brighter", not so
yeasty, and when not served at 1degC, not bad.

The 60L fermenter is very watery in comparison, even more yeasty to
taste, and not as smooth. Yes, timescales are the same, but clearly
there is a difference between "cool" and "hot". And I'd say "cool"
tastes better. This goes with what I understand is the case (and what
I've always done) and seeing as the only difference is a smaller volume
fermenter, but at a warmer temperature, this seems to confirm received
wisdom.

2 years ago cider was freezing in barrels and people were posting pics
on here. Still tasted fine come the spring...

Hope this helps shed (haha) a little light.

[Andrew Lea]

I might also add that there is a difference between cultured and wild
yeasts in this regard.

Cultured yeasts are Saccharomyces clones which all behave in the same
way. So once they are below their temperature range (say <10C) they will
all pretty much shut down.

In wild yeast fermentations, with a heterogeneous population, Darwinian
selection will operate to some extent and those yeasts with a lower
temperature tolerance will continue to operate and indeed proliferate.
It is known that some apiculate (non Saccharomyces) yeasts can continue
to ferment down to 4C at least.

But temperature will still affect the retention of fermentation
volatiles let alone the yeast biochemistry so, unless you are an
industrial cidermaker looking for a 2 week turnaround, cooler is nearly
always better. If you are using a cultured yeast this means operate at
pretty much the bottom of its recommended temperature range.

Andrew

--
Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

[Henry]

I scaled up this year because I am plan to go commercial, and I totally buy the argument that the longer it takes to mature, the more complex and varied flavours have time to develop.  My own production was highly quaffable at the end of March this year, but more importantly, was also appreciated by English and French cider buffs where I am based, which is a long way from the UK.  If I had left it another 3 or 6 months it would have no doubt have improved a bit more.

As part of my experimentation this year I was wondering if I keep the temperature, (and I was thinking of 10oC) at a level which avoids too much deceleration of the process, how much would I sacrifice in quality or taste.  The answer of course is to try it and see. But maybe not with all the tanks ;)

On Sunday, December 2, 2012 6:09:15 PM UTC+2, Henry wrote:

[Vince Wakefield]

We have had a hard frost the last couple of nights here in Wiltshire with
ice in the bird bath and any buckets left out about 1" thick with ice, my
cider is outside, not even in a shed and it's still bubbling, wild yeast
ferment.

Vince

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[Tim]

Should make for a better cider, mine is ticking away in an open fronted shed and doing fine.

 

Tim

--

[jez....@btinternet.com]

The cold weather doesn't make pressing much fun though! Brrrrr!!!

Jez
Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone on O2

[Andrew Lea]

On 02/12/2012 20:12, Andrew Lea wrote:

>
> Cultured yeasts are Saccharomyces clones which all behave in the same
> way. So once they are below their temperature range (say <10C) they will
> all pretty much shut down.

Sorry I might have expressed that in a misleading way. What I meant is
that all the cells of a given cultured yeast strain will behave in the
same way. Of course there are many different strains, each of which vary
in their temperature tolerance. Many are not happy < 15C, while others
will still work down to 10C. If they are proper named strains from a
reputable source, the supplier's data sheet will give that information.

Andrew

[Henry]

Andrew

I am trying 3 yeasts, all tried and tested by others, all from a highly reputed supplier.  In the data sheets: two of them state 10oC as the low end of the range, one states it operates as low as 4oC.  One tank inoculated with a "10oC yeast" kicked off after at 6.5oC.  All tanks are treated with sulphite, and were left approx 24 hours before inoculation.  Most tanks are taking 4-6 days to initiate fermentation.
The 10oC shut-off point is the main reason why I tried to compensate for the cold nights with heating and insulation!  But I will do this with a few tanks and let some others drift down in temperature, and maybe I will get a pleasant surprise with them!
best wishes
Henry

[Cheshire Matt]

I know you asked Andrew, but if I can just chip in...

On Monday, December 3, 2012 11:38:16 AM UTC, Henry wrote:

two of them state 10oC as the low end of the range

 
Suspect it's all stats though, and there will still be an effect beyond that, but not as much?

One tank inoculated with a "10oC yeast" kicked off after at 6.5oC. 

You're assuming it's the "10oC yeast" that's responsible...  what if it's not that yeast?  (And do we really care? Discuss...)

[Henry]

Matt
I was responding to Andrew providing more background on yeasts but your comments for sure most welcome
Regarding which yeast is responsible - your point did occur to me - that's why I mentioned the sulphiting.
Does it matter which yeast is responsible. Well yes, in that I was hoping to find that 1 of the 3 produce more complex flavours, altho the apple blends are not exactly the same in the different tanks.
Regarding the cut off point I would have thought like you that there would be reduced activity at lower temp, as opposed to shut down, but my biochem. Is not as strong as my chemistry
Best wishes
Henry

[Scott Smith]

On Sunday, December 2, 2012 3:12:29 PM UTC-5, Andrew Lea wrote:

But temperature will still affect the retention of fermentation
volatiles let alone the yeast biochemistry so, unless you are an
industrial cidermaker looking for a 2 week turnaround, cooler is nearly
always better. If you are using a cultured yeast this means operate at
pretty much the bottom of its recommended temperature range.

Andrew, have there been any studies of how the biochemistry is different in a cooler ferment?  I always run mine as cold as I can but not sticking, based on the "colder is better" principle, but I never understood why that was a good idea.

My current batch is in a fridge at 4C and is losing .01 SG per month, it started at 1.09 and its at 1.07 now.

Scott

[Andrew Lea]

On 03/12/2012 16:24, Scott Smith wrote:

>
>
> Andrew, have there been any studies of how the biochemistry is different
> in a cooler ferment?

Plenty, at least for wine and beer, but there is no comprehensive 'map'
or 'predictive equation' for what takes place. It's too complex for
that. If you Google <yeast volatiles temperature> you will find a paper
by Molina et al which you can download for free. The review sections and
the conclusions in that paper may be of interest, and pretty much
restate the received wisdom. Although the total amount of volatiles is
conserved better at lower temperatures, the distribution of volatiles
(eg within the ester family) also changes with temperature. I think it
is well known in beers that high temperature (and high gravity) ferments
are often excessively fruity due to the dominance of certain esters. But
I would caution drawing too much parallel between cider and beer since
the yeast strains and nutrient status are very different in the two cases.

> I always run mine as cold as I can but not sticking, based on the "colder is better" principle, but I never
> understood why that was a good idea.

Well the paper I cited explains that in part. But I think "colder is
better" is a dangerous mantra if applied unthinkingly. If you are using
a cultured yeast, and it stops work below <10C, it isn't really
contributing anything at all to the party. Though I guess it won't
matter if you just allow it to go to sleep for a while, for instance, if
you have no way of keeping it any warmer. Whereas a wild yeast ferment
may continue to actively work at 4C, but the yeasts doing the job may
be different strains from those that are happier when its hotter.

>
> My current batch is in a fridge at 4C and is losing .01 SG per month, it
> started at 1.09 and its at 1.07 now.

If you are using a cultured wine yeast that sounds unduly stressful and
rather pointless to me. Wouldn't you be better off at 10 - 15C where the
yeast is happier?

I am trying to make the distinction between what a typical UK craft
cidermaker without any temperature control is forced to do, or what a
French factory cidermaker using a keeved wild ferment might choose to do
(keep very cool via refrigeration), and what you would do if you were
using a cultured yeast and had all the bells and whistles at your
disposal to work at any temperature you chose. These are different cases
and require different responses.

Andrew

[Scott Smith]

Thanks for the reference!

On Monday, December 3, 2012 12:21:13 PM UTC-5, Andrew Lea wrote:

 
> My current batch is in a fridge at 4C and is losing .01 SG per month, it
> started at 1.09 and its at 1.07 now.

If you are using a cultured wine yeast that sounds unduly stressful and
rather pointless to me. Wouldn't you be better off at 10 - 15C where the
yeast is happier?

I should have mentioned I am using natural yeasts, just because thats the way I always do it (I mostly follow the French methods).  I should try using cultured yeast at the higher temps on a future batch for something different, I am not completely pleased with the flavor profile I get now.

Scott

 

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Scott Smith wrote:
> > > My current batch is in a fridge at 4C and is losing .01 SG per month, it
> > > started at 1.09 and its at 1.07 now.
>

> I should have mentioned I am using natural yeasts, just because thats the
> way I always do it (I mostly follow the French methods).  I should try
> using cultured yeast at the higher temps on a future batch for something
> different, I am not completely pleased with the flavor profile I get now.

Scott, If I follow well, the starting SG was 1.090, hence your juice
was either heavily chaptalized or freeze concentrated. If I remember
well, you do the second option and are probably referring to the batch
we discussed about a few months ago.

What is the problem with the flavor profile? Wouldn't you think the
problem could be from what is happening in the orchard (i.e. apple
varieties, cultural practices, terroir) rather than from the yeast?

Claude

[Henry]

Something else occurred to me: when I add the sulphite and later, the yeast, I am agititating with, literally, a giant wooden spoon, but it reaches no more than half way down the IBC.  I wonder if it's possible that I am getting incomplete mixing and dispersion of the sulphite and the yeast, and that the yeast activity below 10oC is in fact from surviving wild yeast?  On the other hand, absolutely nothing happens with the apple juice that I bring for the family and which stays in my fridge for 4-5 days until it is consumed.

[Scott Smith]

On Monday, December 3, 2012 1:33:40 PM UTC-5, Claude Jolicoeur wrote:

What is the problem with the flavor profile? Wouldn't you think the 
problem could be from what is happening in the orchard (i.e. apple 
varieties, cultural practices, terroir) rather than from the yeast? 

Claude, the current batch (yes, the cryoconcentrated one I referenced here earlier) so far has an outstanding flavor profile; it is also nearly clear already in spite of my failed keeve.  I was referring to ciders I have made in past years when I was discussing the less than desirable elements.  I have a suspicion of cause on some of them, one batch had apples with too much bitter pit and I believe that added a negative flavor element.  Some negative elements I have not diagnosed and that causes me to wonder about the yeast.  I ran the past ones at slightly warmer temps (6-8C) and am trying extra low this time to see if that helps.  Unfortunately the flavors I don't like I cannot quite put into words; an attempt at the two most common ones would be "off butterscotch" and "dry and tinny".

Scott

 

[Andrew Lea]

On 13/01/2013 16:15, Chris Galazzi wrote:
> Andrew/forum -
>
> Am first timer hobbyist - have kept my 45litres/9 gallons of juice at
> 15C/60F since pressing December 26th seeking a natural/wild
> yeast fermentation - SG1050 at start, adjusted PH of 3.15, 5mg of
> Sodium Metabisulphate.
>
Can you clarify your metabisulphite addition? How did you measure as
little as 5 milligrams? (Also please note correct spelling!)

Andrew

[Chris Galazzi]

Apologies..looks like I flubbed on more than spelling:) 

I used a triple beam scale to weigh and add 5 grams   of "Sodium Metabisulfite" as it appears on the packaging, (manufactured by Crosby and Baker, and about three years old, although kept in an airtight container) which was what I estimated was the correct minimal amount to protect against Kloecckera but leave room for the apparently more hardy Saccharomyces,  given my PH level - Thanks!

Andrew

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[Andrew Lea]

On 13/01/2013 18:17, Chris Galazzi wrote:

Apologies..looks like I flubbed on more than spelling:) 

I used a triple beam scale to weigh and add 5 grams   of "Sodium Metabisulfite" as it appears on the packaging, (manufactured by Crosby and Baker, and about three years old, although kept in an airtight container) which was what I estimated was the correct minimal amount to protect against Kloecckera but leave room for the apparently more hardy Saccharomyces,  given my PH level - Thanks!

So you added 5000 mg NaMS to 45 litres which is just over 100 ppm NaMS or say 50 ppm of SO2. That is a bit higher than I would add for a wild fermentation at pH 3.1 but still the yeasts should overcome that. If it were me I would leave it at 15C for another week or so and then think of adding a cultured yeast.  Doesn't have to be a champagne yeast - a good wine yeast will do. Don't know why people are so obsessed about using champagne yeasts for cider! If you can get Lalvin 71B it should take out some of the acid too, which might be an advantage. Your choice really.

Andrew

[Richard Reeves]

As a point of (dubious) reference, in my former life in the winery we routinely set the cooling jackets on the white wine tanks at 15C/59F which seemed to be the sweet spot for two opposing concerns, the retention of aromatics vs. the need to turn the tanks over for incoming fruit. There were exceptions to be sure, but this was pretty standard. I suppose it's possible that the aromatic compounds are wildly different between apples and grapes but I would be surprised to find it so. This setting usually gave a 10-14 day window to dryness even with the higher starting gravities involved. Temperature fluctuation was never our friend, it usually seemed to play havoc with the ability of the cultured yeasts to finish the ferment, which is why I worry about you outdoor fermenters  ;) .

[Chris Galazzi]

Will check back in a week - thanks

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[Henry]

Talking about chilling, I discovered this interesting piece of kit whilst browsing earlier today, which may be of interest...

http://www.kreyer.com/cgi-bin/cms?_SID=cf2cb4420d2b90cba80d7639d1b06adb1643d4f300023946423969&_sprache=en&_persistant_variant=produkt&_bereich=artikel&_aktion=detail&idartikel=100280&_persistant_variant=produkt

On Sunday, December 2, 2012 6:09:15 PM UTC+2, Henry wrote: