Acidity, tannin & SG levels for french cider cultivars

[Egil Ussing]

Dear group members

Can anyone help with credible estimates of the acidity, tannin and SG levels of the following french cider cultivars:

Acidity g/L Tannin g/L SG Kermerrien 1,5 4,3 1063 Camelot Guillevic Binet Rouge Frequin Rouge Douce Moen Bedan Judaine Judeline

I have the stats for Kermerrien from Jolicoeur, "The new cider maker's handbook. Unfortunately I do not read french and Bore & Fleckinger's  "Pommiers a cidre"  is rather expensive. Perhaps someone here already has "Pommiers a cidre", reads french and can help me with the information I am seeking? Kind regards, Egil

[Eric Tyira]

This is data that comes from the 2011 report from Washington State University.  I make no claim to it being mine or its accuracy.  The values will probably vary due to location, but it's a start.

Sample	Tannin Avg	Brix Avg	PH Avg	MA Avg	Pollination Group
Bedan de Parts	0.21	12.80	4.21	1.93	5
Frequin Rouge	0.35	11.40	4.23	2.52	3

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[Claude Jolicoeur]

In Boré and Fleckinger, data is given in following units:

TA - acid in milliequivalent / L - multiply x .067 to get g/L in malic

RHO - density as volumic mass at 20C - add 2 points to get SG

tannin as g/L tannic acid

Kermerrien (7 data points): TA 14 - 31 ; RHO 1050 - 1069 ; tannin 2.7 - 6.3

Guillevic (9 data points): TA 65 - 120 ; RHO 1053 - 1078 ; tannin 0.5 - 2.8

Binet rouge (6 pts): TA 20 - 37 ; RHO 1057 - 1073 ; tannin 1.9 - 3.4

Fréquin rouge petit (avg of 6 pts): TA 36 ; RHO 1066 ; tannin 5.1

Douce Moën (30 pts): TA 22 - 57 ; RHO 1048 -1083 ; tannin 1.4 - 5.2

Bedan (53 pts): TA 11 - 82 ; RHO 1042 - 1076 ; tannin 0.9 - 3.5

Judaine (11 pts): TA 68 - 130 ; RHO 1043 - 1075 ; tannin 0.4 - 1.5

Judeline (5 pts): TA 64 - 82 ; RHO 1045 - 1059 ; tannin 0.5 - 0.8

Camelot - no data

[Egil Ussing]

Dear Eric & Claude

Thank you for your swift answers.

I have found additional data (in french) from IFPC which also includes estimates for maturity/picking. You can see it here:

http://www.ifpc.eu/fileadmin/users/ifpc/infos_techniques/Varietes_cidricoles.pdf

When comparing two sets of data - that is - the calculated avg from Joulicour's edition of Boré and Fleckinger (B&F) and the IFPC's interpretation of B&F - which are more or less similar, I plan to do the following four blends to see which turns out best:

40% Judaine/20% Binet Rouge/20% Douce Moën/20 % Frequin Rouge 20%

40% Judaine/60% Binet Rouge

40% Judaine/60% Douce Moën

40% Judaine/ Frequin Rouge 60%

I plan to harvest the apples in mid october on the island of Lolland - an island in south eastern Denmark where the avg annual temperature is 9,5 degrees celcius and the annual rain fall is below 700 mm. Lolland has the lowest amount of pricipitation in october in Denmark.

What is your immidiate opinnion my blends and have you any suggestions for other blends I might try instead/as well?

Kind regards,

Egil

PS. Here are the data I am comparing:

	TA avg	Tannin avg	SG avg	%
Joliceour/avg
Judaine	6,635	0,95	1061	40%
Binet rouge	1,91	2,65	1067	20%
Fréquin rouge petit	2,4	5,1	1068	20%
Douce Moën	2,645	3,3	1067,5	20%
	4,045	2,59	1064,9
Joliceour
Judeline	4,89	0,65	1054	40%
Binet rouge	1,91	2,65	1067	20%
Fréquin rouge petit	2,4	5,1	1068	20%
Douce Moën	2,645	3,3	1067,5	20%
	3,347	2,47	1062,1
	TA avg	Tannin avg	SG avg	%
IFPC
Judaine	6,7268	0,75	1053	40%
Binet rouge	1,77818	2,4	1063	20%
Fréquin rouge petit	2,43545	5,06	1065	20%
Douce Moën	2,13395	2,43	1061	20%
	3,960236	2,278	1059
IFPC	TA	Tannin	SG
Judeline	5,05314	0,67	1050	40%
Binet rouge	1,77818	2,4	1063	20%
Fréquin rouge petit	2,43545	5,06	1065	20%
Douce Moën	2,13395	2,43	1061	20%
	3,290772	2,246	1057,8

[Claude Jolicoeur]

The difference comes from that I gave the min and max values in Bore and Fleckinger. In the book the average is also given, but I thought the range would be more useful for you. The IFPC data only gives the average from B&F.

I see you have taken the middle value between min and max. This is different from a true average. If you want the average, then the IFPC is correct.

Note that density given by IFPC is the same volumic mass as in B&F, hence same correction should apply to obtain the SG. I had written to add 2 points but in fact the right correction is to divide by 998, which is the volumic mass of water at 20C (in practice, it comes to the same).

And finally, you shouldn't assume the values given for France will be the same in your situation in Denmark. Local terroir may have important influence on the numbers you will actually get. Extrapolations of the sort you have done would not be very reliable.

Claude

[Egil Ussing]

Thank you for your note of caution.

It took me a while to figure it out, but then I revisited that great handbook of yours, and discovered I had already been given good advice!

I have a spectrometer and shall buy an acidity test kit to make my own measurements.

Hopefully, they will allow me to make reliable decisions as far as my future cider on french cider cultivars is concerned.

Happy New Year

Egil

[Eric Lindblad]

Dear Egil Ussing,

http://nurmi-labs.blogspot.com/2015/10/awk.html

The above is (to date) an incompleted blog Post on IT.

I had intended to demonstrate the specific coding language's mathematical capabilities.

That would use the 2nd and/or 3rd fields of certain records of my delimited file.

I would write to you about available cider in Copenhagen.

You can find my email on the provided URL.

Sincerely,

Eric Lindblad

fredag den 21. december 2018 kl. 23.27.51 UTC+1 skrev Egil Ussing:

[CiderSupply.com]

Hi Egil, i did same resesrch that you are doing now for about 7 years. As a result, planted hundreds of cider cultivars in a location where te terroir is effectively the same as Normandy France.

If planting for cider consistency based on data, keep in mind that with everyone's numbers, they will vary almost 20% from year to year regardless of terroir.

Then the data becomes a huge problimatic numerical matrix if used for guidance for cider blending and consistency in flavor profile.

What has worked well for us year after year, is merely add all the apples together in groups of bittersweets, bittersharps, sweets, and dessert with sharps.

Then blend later after ferment.

But the data is sure interesting and will give you a rich knowledge.

Best regards
Chris Rylands
Renaissance Orchards
Ferndale, WA USA