[Cider Workshop] Apple press specs

[from Heather]

I've kind of settled on a garbage dispossal for the crusher, but I'm a little confused on the press...

For starters, how many tons would one recommend? I've heard as small as 2 ton, and as much as 20. I have seen Andrew's stats on presses (http://www.cider.org.uk/press.htm) but I want to know what others think. Martian did indicate that he liked a 4 ton hydraulic jack rather than a scissor jack because the scissor jack deformed under pressure. Any other stories?

Secondly, what kind of basket? This one is probably confusing me the most.
There was a normally priced $250 basket press that Amazon has for $95, but I'm hearing that it is awful with apples but great with grapes. Something about the center being bad for pushing, I think?  http://www.amazon.com/Weston-Fruit-and-Wine-Press/dp/B000JL0G4K

Or is it the actual round basket that is bad?
There is this set of plans - http://whizbangbooks.blogspot.com/2007/12/wb23.html with pictures - http://www.whizbangcider.com/2009/01/whizbang-cider-photo-gallery.html
I keep looking at this one thinking in 3 years it might be my upgrade, but if the basket is an issue, then I shouldn't look. http://www.applejournal.com/correll/index.htm

Is it better to stick with the flat bed presses like Claude and James posted, and the set of plans found on Andrew's site?
http://picasaweb.google.com/cjoliprsf/ApplePress
http://photos.fidell.co.uk/displayimage.php?album=topn&cat=0&pos=3
http://www.cider.org.uk/press.htm

Again, I'm looking for something that would be good for a beginner for about 3 years or so.

Thanks,
Heather

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[Andrew Lea]

On 27/04/2010 17:26, from Heather wrote:

>
> For starters, how many tons would one recommend? I've heard as small as
> 2 ton, and as much as 20. I have seen Andrew's stats on presses
> (http://www.cider.org.uk/press.htm) but I want to know what others
> think.

It doesn't matter how many tons, because tons is a force. What matters
is pressure, force divided by area. PSI (pounds per square inch) is one
measure of that. So the criterion taken from the figures on my website
should be, can you develop a pressure in excess of 70 psi (500 kPa) when
you take the jack force *and* the area over which it acts into account.
What you are trying to do is to overcome the internal pressures of the
apple cells in order to rupture them. Hydraulic bottle jacks do not
bend and are recommended over scissor jacks.

>
> Is it better to stick with the flat bed presses like Claude and James
> posted, and the set of plans found on Andrew's site?

In my view yes. For one major reason that a pack press is like a whole
series of small thin presses that work independently. A basket press is
one big unit and inherently less efficient. Well that's what I think
anyway. But I know others get good results with them. I think
historically, if basket presses were as good for apples as they may be
for grapes, the pack press would never have been developed to the extent
that it was during the 19th and early 20th centuries.

Andrew

Andrew

--
Wittenham Hill Cider Pages
www.cider.org.uk

[greg l.]

Andrew, basket presses aren't any good for grapes either, I think your
reasons are correct. Basket presses are for the fermented skins of red
wine, I have helped use a big hydraulic basket press to press fresh
white grapes and it is hopeless, you leave a big part of the juice
behind.

[Galen Williams]

Interesting that they say basket presses aren't good for apples.  Hopefully we can have decent luck with the one we have.

G

[Galen Williams]

Sorry that should have been forwarded and not replied to.

[Pete]

There are always good better and best.  I think it's a start , ultimately we will evolve. This guy Andrew is not on the level of Pete Mitchell , although he has his own book that does not make him a process expert.

 

Pete

---

From: Galen Williams <galenaw...@gmail.com>
To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tue, April 27, 2010 5:14:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Re: Apple press specs

[raybl...@ntlworld.com]

Ok here's my two penn'orth / two cents worth...

About a dozen or so years ago we went to the cider museum at Hereford, UK, for an Apple Day weekend event which had Ralph of Ralph's Cider (surprisingly...) using an old tractor to power an ancient belt-driven scratter to mill sacks of apples. This pulp was pressed by a variety of folks using commercial and home-made devices, including Ralph using a huge wagon-mounted twin-screw rack and cloth press.

At this point in time we knew we wanted to make cider but hadn't started, so were on a fact-finding / research mission; with this in mind we paid close attention to the local craft / homemade cider folks who were using a wide range of small "hobby" and low-scale presses. After spending some time watching and talking to these folks it became clear that the Basket Press type was the weakest performer from what we saw and heard. The more efficient presses - which also seemed to us easier to load / empty / clean were the rack-and-cloth style of press (also called pack-presses). Like Andrew says, after visiting many low to medium to large-scale cider-makers around the UK, we never came across anyone using a basket press, only rack-and-cloth presses of various sizes, for which there must be a reason.

We went back to our digs and started sketching out ideas for making our own rack-and-cloth press on a tight budget. We then later picked up the just-published book by Pooley & Lomax and this re-fired our plans to make our own budget press. We made our first press in 2000 which used net curtaining for cloths and a screw-thread to provide the pressure; it took a day or two to make it. It was quite efficient and very similar to James's press. The plans were made available on another cider website in the early noughties from where it has been copied, adapted and improved many, many times.

We upgraded the pressure by changing the screw-thread for a 6-tonne hydraulic jack and re-making the top beam, later moving up to a 10-tonne hydraulic jack. Average output was about 25 - 30 litres per pressing, leaving a very dry pulp. After 10 years of use we have moved on to using two Vigo pack-presses side-by-side.

The advice to go for a Rack & Cloth or pack-press is good advice in my opinion.

Good luck, whatever your final choice.

Ray.

[from Heather]

Wow, I was just attempting to look at http://ukcider.co.uk/wiki/index.php/Homemade_Cider_Press to see what you did. I say attempting because the flicker pictures are not loading for me on pretty much any of that site. It is just me?


> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 23:24:15 +0100
> From: raybl...@ntlworld.com
> To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Apple press specs
> CC: for_h...@hotmail.com

---

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[raybl...@ntlworld.com]

Hi Heather,

No, I'm afraid it is not just you. I deleted the images when I was blocked from that group (lots of history and water-under-the-bridge), but they will some day be available on here (ok Jez, I know...).

I'm afraid I cannot send you the images as my PC has been without life for a few weeks now (my back-up laptop is working hard...) while I save up to either repair it or buy a new one; everything is backed up but I cannot use the back-up drive on this laptop.

However, the press only cost a few pounds to make and was very simple. If you know anyone who can weld and work steel, it may be cheaper and quicker, as well as stronger...?

If there is anyone else on here who has made a small rack & cloth press similar to, or based on the "Ray Press" perhaps they would like to show Heather what they came up with?

Heather: Get back to me off-list if you need any more detail or have particular questions.

Cheers,

Ray.

---- from Heather <for_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Wow, I was just attempting to look at http://ukcider.co.uk/wiki/index.php/Homemade_Cider_Press to see what you did. I say attempting because the flicker pictures are not loading for me on pretty much any of that site. It is just me?
>
>
> > Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 23:24:15 +0100
> > From: raybl...@ntlworld.com
> > To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Apple press specs
> > CC: for_h...@hotmail.com
> >
> > Ok here's my two penn'orth / two cents worth...
> >
> > About a dozen or so years ago we went to the cider museum at Hereford, UK, for an Apple Day weekend event which had Ralph of Ralph's Cider (surprisingly...) using an old tractor to power an ancient belt-driven scratter to mill sacks of apples. This pulp was pressed by a variety of folks using commercial and home-made devices, including Ralph using a huge wagon-mounted twin-screw rack and cloth press.
> >
> > At this point in time we knew we wanted to make cider but hadn't started, so were on a fact-finding / research mission; with this in mind we paid close attention to the local craft / homemade cider folks who were using a wide range of small "hobby" and low-scale presses. After spending some time watching and talking to these folks it became clear that the Basket Press type was the weakest performer from what we saw and heard. The more efficient presses - which also seemed to us easier to load / empty / clean were the rack-and-cloth style of press (also called pack-presses). Like Andrew says, after visiting many low to medium to large-scale cider-makers around the UK, we never came across anyone using a basket press, only rack-and-cloth presses of various sizes, for which there must be a reason.
> >
> > We went back to our digs and started sketching out ideas for making our own rack-and-cloth press on a tight budget. We then later picked up the just-published book by Pooley & Lomax and this re-fired our plans to make our own budget press. We made our first press in 2000 which used net curtaining for cloths and a screw-thread to provide the pressure; it took a day or two to make it. It was quite efficient and very similar to James's press. The plans were made available on another cider website in the early noughties from where it has been copied, adapted and improved many, many times.
> >
> > We upgraded the pressure by changing the screw-thread for a 6-tonne hydraulic jack and re-making the top beam, later moving up to a 10-tonne hydraulic jack. Average output was about 25 - 30 litres per pressing, leaving a very dry pulp. After 10 years of use we have moved on to using two Vigo pack-presses side-by-side.
> >
> > The advice to go for a Rack & Cloth or pack-press is good advice in my opinion.
> >
> > Good luck, whatever your final choice.
> >
> > Ray.
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Cider Workshop" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to cider-w...@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com.
> > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cider-workshop?hl=en.
> >
>

> _________________________________________________________________

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[Claude Jolicoeur]

Pete wrote:
> There are always good better and best.  I think it's a start , ultimately we will evolve. This guy Andrew is not on the level of Pete Mitchell , although he has his own book that does not make him a process expert.

How interesting, this comment!!! It wouldn't have occured to me to
compare the "Level" of Andrew with the one of Pete Mitchell. I'm sure
there both very high level, but one important thing however, I don't
remember having seen a post by Pete Mitchell on this list where he
would have shared his knowledge, as Andrew (and others) do - for
free... So I politely suggest you try to have Andrew on your side.
(and I am not too sure he really likes to be called "This guy")

Other than that, you are right - there is always good, better and
best. And it is true that a small basket press will do the job.
Actually, the larger the basket, the less efficient it becomes because
the juice has a longer path to go. In Spain, they use huge presses and
leave under pressure for days to let the time for the juice to escape.

[pete.m...@yahoo.com]

Well said didn't mean to come off that way Andrew I apologize.


Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®

[Mark Shirley]

There are always good better and best. I think it's a start , ultimately we
will evolve. This guy Andrew is not on the level of Pete Mitchell , although
he has his own book that does not make him a process expert.

Pete

I understand that Peter Mitchell is equipping the processing area at the
Hartpury Orchard Centre with a Goodnature press, so perhaps he's decided
both Basket presses and Pack presses have had their day. Quite why you feel
the need for a Harry Hill style face-off between Andrew and Peter is a
mystery...

Mark
http://rockinghamforestcider.moonfruit.com/
http://rockinghamforestcider.blogspot.com/

[Dick Dunn]

On basket presses, see further down. But first:

On Tue, Apr 27, 2010 at 02:19:38PM -0700, Pete wrote:
> There are always good better and best. I think it's a start , ultimately
> we will evolve. This guy Andrew is not on the level of Pete Mitchell ,
> although he has his own book that does not make him a process expert.

I wondered if this was another message meant to have been off-list...as
Claude says, it is "interesting!" Or perhaps it's curiously stated;
Andrew is distinctly above Peter Mitchell's level in several areas, it
being that Andrew worked on the research that Peter teaches.

Andrew was a scientist-researcher; Peter a teacher. Both have worked with
industry as advisor/consultants, and know cider process. They have
different orientations in some cases, since Peter teaches strongly to
industrial consistency whereas Andrew approaches it as you would
approach wine production. But it's not a contest.

In the case of the basket press, it doesn't take an Andrew, nor even a
Mitchell, to answer the questions. As Ray said, you look around and you
see there simply aren't any basket presses in serious use. What Andrew did
was to put some real numbers and explanations of phenomena to why a basket
press is not the best choice.

I had to learn it the hard way. I started out with a small commercial
basket press, and along the way made various improvements to increase
the yield a little bit here and there. I also learned technique in
tightening the press "just so" to postpone the binding-up effect that
blocks the escape of juice as the press is tightened. But it's all
polishing...well, if you're an engineer you know the phrase...it's
fine-tuning a poor solution. The problem is fundamental to the design.

You can get by with a basket press. I have for many years. But it's
inefficient. Actually, you get your choice of mediocre yield with a long
pressing or poor yield with a quicker pressing (but still longer than
with a pack press). It will really hit you--it will hurt--when you've
got a small quantity of particularly fine apples, a special variety
perhaps, and you realize that you could have gotten 20% more juice from
those apples with a different press.

"If I knew then what I know now" I wouldn't have gotten the basket press
in the first place.

Even more, basket presses don't scale well. As Claude pointed out, a
larger basket press is less efficient than a small one. And increasing
the pressure doesn't help much.

A parting shot: If you want to judge Andrew's credentials on writing,
instead of his recent small book have a look at the Lea/Drilleau chapter
on cider in _Fermented_Beverage_Production_ (an industry standard
reference), of which Andrew is also co-editor.
--
Dick Dunn rc...@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA

[Claude Jolicoeur]

On basket vs rack presses, I guess we could very easily close the
debate by something extremely simple:

There are many of us here, including myself, Dick, and I am sure many
others, that had a basket-screw press as a first press and then went
to a rack-hydraulic press to improve their yield, or simply to get
something better, faster.

I don't think you could find a single individual who went the other
way, i.e. start with a rack-hydraulic and changed for a basket-
screw...

But I am not as radical as Dick... I still use my old basket press
once in a while, when I have plenty of apples and I don't mind too
much for yield. Also, during apple parties with children the basket
press is more fun and more easily worked - they can have a lot of fun
playing with it, while I wouldn't like to see children playing with my
rack press. So, I am still pleased to have this basket press!

Claude

[Rich Anderson]

I know both of them and respect them. They have contributed tremendously to
the cider renaissance here in the US.

However, in my part of the world, Andrew is a saint. For a number of the
"older" cider makers in the US, he has helped us in many times (read that as
"saved our bacon") years before Peter arrived. As someone noted, Andrew has
shares his expertise with craft cidermakers pro bono, Peter consults for a
fee. Andrew has always been very generous with his time and many of us who
visit the UK have been made welcome in his home. He is a great teacher in
cider and in life.

-----Original Message-----
From: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:cider-w...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of
pete.m...@yahoo.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2010 4:02 PM
To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Re: Apple press specs

Well said didn't mean to come off that way Andrew I apologize.

Sent on the SprintR Now Network from my BlackBerryR

[from Heather]

Okay, finally got home and looked at Real Cidermaking On a Small Scale, and I can see that it is a basket set up. With all the disappointment in baskets, I can see why Ray changed it to a cheese system. http://www.ukcider.co.uk/wiki/index.php/Homemade_Cider_Press  Admittedly, I'm curious about pictures if anyone has a similar set up.



> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 23:45:48 +0100
> From: raybl...@ntlworld.com
> To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: RE: [Cider Workshop] Apple press specs

---

The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail. Get busy.

[from Heather]

Okay, what I am hearing from everyone is that the yield from a basket press is low, and that the square cheese style is better.

I have two routes to go with this.

There is a set of plans in Proulx/Lew's book made out of wood.

My other option is to modify a Harbor Freight Shop Jack like this guy did: http://oldtimecider.com/2010/04/23/build-your-own-cider-press/ . Thing is, he bought a plastic press base, and even though he sites where he got it (Good Nature - Rouge Cider Press), I can't seem to find it. I did find something at http://www.cidermillsupplies.com/cart/cat_press_supplies.php has both racks and the base, but I'm having a small heart attack over the price and I was thinking of just making it out of wood. Ray suggested perhaps using kitchen laminate on wood for a tray.

I can find racks - https://www.oescoinc.com/cider-press-poly-rack-p-2425.html?osCsid=3fc71ceb5f3d022b23f3ff115d71f901

http://www.goodnature.com/Juice_Equipment/Axiliary_Equipment/
Ray mentioned not needing racks, and I'm a little confused about that after watching another film on how to use the press.

Another small issue I have to figure out is the size. The press is $200 for a 20 ton, which is something like 22". There is a $120 12 ton press on sale for $80 though May, but it is only 16.5" wide, and the smallest I see of trays and racks and what not is 17".

Thanks everyone for giving me some direction. More advice from any cider press user is greatly appreciated, as you all have experience in this matter that really helps me out.

Heather

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[greg l.]

I don't believe basket presses were ever really designed for fresh
fruit. As I said, in winemaking they are used for fermented skins
which are easy to press. Maybe if the apple pulp were allowed to
ferment part way and then pressed they would work better for apples,
but I don't know how that would affect flavour. Screw presses are used
for grapes when a lot of pressure is required, they have the advantage
of allowing a continuous throughput but are considered too harsh for
premium wine. Bag presses are the usual method for grapes. Our winery
used to use the big basket press for chardonnay but as said the
pressure in a deep bed is not very good, we would throw in lots of
stems to make channels for the juice to flow through. Now we send the
grapes away to be pressed, comes back as chilled sulphited juice, much
better yield and much better wine.

On Apr 28, 1:20 pm, from Heather <for_heat...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Okay, finally got home and looked at Real Cidermaking On a Small Scale, and I can see that it is a basket set up. With all the disappointment in baskets, I can see why Ray changed it to a cheese system.http://www.ukcider.co.uk/wiki/index.php/Homemade_Cider_Press Admittedly, I'm curious about pictures if anyone has a similar set up.

>
>
>
>
>
> > Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 23:45:48 +0100

> > From: rayblock...@ntlworld.com

> > To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
> > Subject: RE: [Cider Workshop] Apple press specs
>
> > Hi Heather,
>
> > No, I'm afraid it is not just you. I deleted the images when I was blocked from that group (lots of history and water-under-the-bridge), but they will some day be available on here (ok Jez, I know...).
>
> > I'm afraid I cannot send you the images as my PC has been without life for a few weeks now (my back-up laptop is working hard...) while I save up to either repair it or buy a new one; everything is backed up but I cannot use the back-up drive on this laptop.
>
> > However, the press only cost a few pounds to make and was very simple. If you know anyone who can weld and work steel, it may be cheaper and quicker, as well as stronger...?
>
> > If there is anyone else on here who has made a small rack & cloth press similar to, or based on the "Ray Press" perhaps they would like to show Heather what they came up with?
>
> > Heather: Get back to me off-list if you need any more detail or have particular questions.
>
> > Cheers,
>
> > Ray.
>

> > ---- from Heather <for_heat...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Wow, I was just attempting to look athttp://ukcider.co.uk/wiki/index.php/Homemade_Cider_Pressto see what you did. I say attempting because the flicker pictures are not loading for me on pretty much any of that site. It is just me?

>
> > > > Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 23:24:15 +0100

> > > > From: rayblock...@ntlworld.com

> > > > To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
> > > > Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Apple press specs

> > > > CC: for_heat...@hotmail.com

>
> > > > Ok here's my two penn'orth / two cents worth...
>
> > > > About a dozen or so years ago we went to the cider museum at Hereford, UK, for an Apple Day weekend event which had Ralph of Ralph's Cider (surprisingly...) using an old tractor to power an ancient belt-driven scratter to mill sacks of apples. This pulp was pressed by a variety of folks using commercial and home-made devices, including Ralph using a huge wagon-mounted twin-screw rack and cloth press.
>
> > > > At this point in time we knew we wanted to make cider but hadn't started, so were on a fact-finding / research mission; with this in mind we paid close attention to the local craft / homemade cider folks who were using a wide range of small "hobby" and low-scale presses. After spending some time watching and talking to these folks it became clear that the Basket Press type was the weakest performer from what we saw and heard. The more efficient presses - which also seemed to us easier to load / empty / clean were the rack-and-cloth style of press (also called pack-presses). Like Andrew says, after visiting many low to medium to large-scale cider-makers around the UK, we never came across anyone using a basket press, only rack-and-cloth presses of various sizes, for which there must be a reason.
>
> > > > We went back to our digs and started sketching out ideas for making our own rack-and-cloth press on a tight budget. We then later picked up the just-published book by Pooley & Lomax and this re-fired our plans to make our own budget press. We made our first press in 2000 which used net curtaining for cloths and a screw-thread to provide the pressure; it took a day or two to make it. It was quite efficient and very similar to James's press. The plans were made available on another cider website in the early noughties from where it has been copied, adapted and improved many, many times.  
>
> > > > We upgraded the pressure by changing the screw-thread for a 6-tonne hydraulic jack and re-making the top beam, later moving up to a 10-tonne hydraulic jack. Average output was about 25 - 30 litres per pressing, leaving a very dry pulp. After 10 years of use we have moved on to using two Vigo pack-presses side-by-side.
>
> > > > The advice to go for a Rack & Cloth or pack-press is good advice in my opinion.
>
> > > > Good luck, whatever your final choice.
>
> > > > Ray.
>
> > > > --
> > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Cider Workshop" group.
> > > > To post to this group, send email to cider-w...@googlegroups.com.
> > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com.

> > > > For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/cider-workshop?hl=en.

>
> > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with Hotmail.

> > >http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&oci...

>
> > > --
> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Cider Workshop" group.
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>
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>
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>
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[from Heather]

I had never heard of a grappa until I was touring a local distillery. http://clearcreekdistillery.com/grappas.html  They were saying that not all the juice is squeezed out of the grape, so the peasants would take it and make moonshine. Maybe basket presses are the reason for that? This distillery ground up everything and let it ferment on the fruit, and would toss it in the distiller fermented juice, fruit, and all, so they never pressed.

Heather


> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 20:56:10 -0700
> Subject: [Cider Workshop] Re: Apple press specs
> From: breadandb...@gmail.com
> To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com

---

The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. Get started.

[greg l.]

My current plan is to use a big multi-stemmed gum tree which grows
next to my cellar as a frame for a press. 2 of the trunks grow a handy
distance apart, I plan to rebate in a crossbeam with a chainsaw for a
bottle jack to push against, and have the collection tray at the base
where the 2 trunks join. This should be extremely strong and allow me
to use a 10 tonne jack, with the usual rack and cloth type design. As
i've said before, I use the garden shredder for milling, I would
consider this better, quicker and cheaper than a garbage disposal
unit. A shredder is designed for shredding organic matter into small
chunks quickly, very similar to a scratter. I am just using it exactly
as intended, it's the final product that is different.

> > > > Wow, I was just attempting to look athttp://ukcider.co.uk/wiki/index.php/Homemade_Cider_Presstosee what you did. I say attempting because the flicker pictures are not loading for me on pretty much any of that site. It is just me?

[from Heather]

I think we are going to want pictures of this gum tree press!


> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 21:05:57 -0700

> Subject: [Cider Workshop] Re: Apple press specs
> From: breadandb...@gmail.com
> To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
>

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[matthelliwell]

On 28 Apr, 04:37, from Heather <for_heat...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Okay, what I am hearing from everyone is that the yield from a basket press is low, and that the square cheese style is better.
>
> I have two routes to go with this.
>
> There is a set of plans in Proulx/Lew's book made out of wood.
>
> My other option is to modify a Harbor Freight Shop Jack like this guy did:http://oldtimecider.com/2010/04/23/build-your-own-cider-press/.

I went for a 3rd route and had a frame welded up out of box steel to
replace one I made out of plywood. It is just 4 pieces of box steel
welded together to form a rectangle. The top beam now stays absolutely
still when pressing with no worrying bending and groaning!

I can't weld so I just searched for a local welder who would do the
job. I think I paid about £100 to have it made.

The tray is made from offcuts of kitchen worktop which works fine.

Matt

[James Fidell]

Andrew Lea wrote:

> It doesn't matter how many tons, because tons is a force. What matters
> is pressure, force divided by area. PSI (pounds per square inch) is one
> measure of that. So the criterion taken from the figures on my website
> should be, can you develop a pressure in excess of 70 psi (500 kPa) when
> you take the jack force *and* the area over which it acts into account.
> What you are trying to do is to overcome the internal pressures of the
> apple cells in order to rupture them. Hydraulic bottle jacks do not
> bend and are recommended over scissor jacks.

I'll second that. My first press used a scissor jack and it bent very
easily as well as being awkward to operate. I built a larger press
from scrap timber and used a 12 tonne bottle jack which worked
excellently though after a couple of seasons it became obvious that the
timbers weren't really up to the job, so I rebuilt it from new, larger
section timber. There's a picture of the first bottle jack press here:

http://photos.fidell.co.uk/displayimage.php?album=59&pos=9

James

[Elizabeth Williams]

Heather,

I built one of Ray's presses, and it works well and has done so for a few years now.  I followed his instructions and have a good press as a result.  The photographs that James has a link to in the last posting look pretty well like the one I made.  I used, Ray suggests, laminated birch, and it's managing well.  One word of caution, I made the cross beam four inches in depth which meant it started to bow rather under pressure, so I strengthened it with another two inches of laminated birch, making six inches in total and now it's rock solid.

As it happens, I use a basket press as well, but that's because we've got one and we might as well use it.  It was the first press we started with, but I wanted to increase our production more, (and I'm not planning to) I would make another pack press.

Liz

I'll second that.  My first press used a scissor jack and it bent very
easily as well as being awkward to operate.  I built a larger press
from scrap timber and used a 12 tonne bottle jack which worked
excellently though after a couple of seasons it became obvious that the
timbers weren't really up to the job, so I rebuilt it from new, larger
section timber.  There's a picture of the first bottle jack press here:

 http://photos.fidell.co.uk/displayimage.php?album=59&pos=9

James

--

Elizabeth A Williams

[Dick Dunn]

On Tue, Apr 27, 2010 at 07:44:09PM -0700, Claude Jolicoeur wrote:
...

> There are many of us here, including myself, Dick, and I am sure many
> others, that had a basket-screw press as a first press and then went
> to a rack-hydraulic press to improve their yield, or simply to get
> something better, faster.

...
> But I am not as radical as Dick... I still use my old basket press
> once in a while, when I have plenty of apples and I don't mind too

> much for yield...

I am not so radical...or perhaps not so ambitious! I still have--and
use--my basket press. I hate it in so many ways, but I use it!

While I'm working on the successor, it isn't ready yet.

But thanks, Claude, for giving me more credit for common sense than I
actually have.

--
Dick Dunn rc...@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA

[Jez Howat]

Heather - I have some photo's of my steel 'Ray-press' on the Flikr group
(link from the web portal or from 'resources' on the website). I am not sure
if these help. It is slightly larger than the specs Ray gave previously,
although this is simply because steel can be thinner and retain its strength
(it's actually mild box section - which has to be coated properly as apple
juice will eat it).

Not going to add to the basket press vs. Rack n cloth press... although I am
inclined to agree. However, basket presses are cheaper to purchase (unless
you make your own) and *do* work to press apples. However, personally, I
aspired to have a rack n cloth press and am very glad I have one.

All the best

Jez

[martin]

Hi Heather,
I made my press using a 20L HDPE pail (Similar to the last photo in
the Whizbang link) as well as some leftover cedar 2" X 4" and 3/4" fir
ply wood material I had lying around. The cross member which the jack
pushes against is 2"x 4"white oak. For me, budget was the primary
consideration, and I have been very pleased with the cost/performance
ratio. The press was made in about 4 hours out of material I had lying
around the house with the exception of some carriage bolts, washers,
and the finish, which I made up of beeswax and mineral oil.

I would also like to note that the press I made is somewhat of a
hybrid; that is to say it is a basket press but utilizes 3 layers of
press cloth cheeses with a 3/4"plywood plate between each layer and a
pressure plate made out of a leftover piece of 1 3/4" thick Ikea
counter top.
I pressed about 250L of cider using this set up and the cheeses were
coming out quite dry and compressed.

If you have the money to spend on a pre-made plate and press cloth
unit, that may be the way to go. But if you want to press a couple of
hundred liters on the cheap, it can be done DIY for under CAD $100.

Best regards,
Martin





On Apr 27, 6:26 pm, from Heather <for_heat...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I've kind of settled on a garbage dispossal for the crusher, but I'm a little confused on the press...
>
> For starters, how many tons would one recommend? I've heard as small as 2 ton, and as much as 20. I have seen Andrew's stats on presses (http://www.cider.org.uk/press.htm) but I want to know what others think. Martian did indicate that he liked a 4 ton hydraulic jack rather than a scissor jack because the scissor jack deformed under pressure. Any other stories?
>
> Secondly, what kind of basket? This one is probably confusing me the most.
> There was a normally priced $250 basket press that Amazon has for $95, but I'm hearing that it is awful with apples but great with grapes. Something about the center being bad for pushing, I think?  http://www.amazon.com/Weston-Fruit-and-Wine-Press/dp/B000JL0G4K
>
> Or is it the actual round basket that is bad?
> There is this set of plans -http://whizbangbooks.blogspot.com/2007/12/wb23.htmlwith pictures -http://www.whizbangcider.com/2009/01/whizbang-cider-photo-gallery.html
> I keep looking at this one thinking in 3 years it might be my upgrade, but if the basket is an issue, then I shouldn't look.http://www.applejournal.com/correll/index.htm
>
> Is it better to stick with the flat bed presses like Claude and James posted, and the set of plans found on Andrew's site?http://picasaweb.google.com/cjoliprsf/ApplePresshttp://photos.fidell.co.uk/displayimage.php?album=topn&cat=0&pos=3http://www.cider.org.uk/press.htm
>
> Again, I'm looking for something that would be good for a beginner for about 3 years or so.
>
> Thanks,
> Heather
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox.http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTA...

[James Fidell]

greg l. wrote:
> I don't believe basket presses were ever really designed for fresh
> fruit. As I said, in winemaking they are used for fermented skins
> which are easy to press.

My recollection from my WSET courses is that people did used to use
very large basket presses for grapes (perhaps as much as three metres
in diameter?), and in fact may possibly still do so. I have a nagging
feeling that they're used in Champagne, where for the most part they're
after a light pressing with minimal skin contact time because the juice
is considered to be of a higher quality and because they're often
pressing red grapes (Pinot Noir and Pinot Meunier, IIRC) for clear
juice, but I can't find the details in my books at the moment.

A quick google for "champagne basket press" turns up:

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/khxixQLjssXlXmaCusFseQ

which suggests that my memory may not be entirely faulty.

James

[greg l.]

I can't say I'm an expert on the history of wine presses! As many
people have said in this thread, basket presses will certainly do the
job, the design is quite simple and elegant. However I think it is a
long time since basket presses were used commercially for white wine
or champagne, bag presses are supposed to be a lot better. I use my
homemade apple press to press my red wine skins after ferment, it does
a reasonable job but not ideal.

[Alex Coram]

I've just uploaded some photos of our rather unconventional press to
the group flickr page if anyone is interested. Is there a way to copy
them into this thread?

We use a 3-4 stack rack and cloth method with the back actor of a
digger on top. With the front bucket down the full weight of the
tractor is suspended between the front and back buckets, which must be
a fair old pressure. I'm sure it's nowhere near as effective as the
ones previously mentioned, but it certainly gets the job done and the
pulp comes out really quite dry.

Alex

[from Heather]

Ack! I finally found the flickr account that Jez and Alex said they posted pictures to. http://www.flickr.com/groups/cider/

How does one find their pictures? I tried "press", but I don't know who is who, adn it turns up a lot of historical pictures and modern industrial sites. Useful, but not the images I was hoping to see. You know, Jez and Alex invited us to see these pictures, so there is a personal connection.

Heather


> Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 05:07:37 -0700
> Subject: [Cider Workshop] Re: Apple press specs
> From: alex...@hotmail.com
> To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com

---

The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail. Get busy.

[James Fidell]

from Heather wrote:
> Ack! I finally found the flickr account that Jez and Alex said they
> posted pictures to. http://www.flickr.com/groups/cider/

Are you sure it isn't this one:

http://www.flickr.com/groups/theciderworkshop/

James

[from Heather]

Ah, yes, that is much better! Thanks!

Oooo, pretty pictures...

Heather


> Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 18:32:55 +0100
> From: ja...@fidell.co.uk
> To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Re: Apple press specs

---

The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with Hotmail. Get busy.

[Glenn Sutcliffe]

Hi Alex,

That's some press. You appear to be using tanalised half rounds, if
correct, they are pressure treated with something which is toxic.
Many years ago I was fisheries manager of a 51/2 mile stretch of the
Dorset Stour, one tributary of the Stour called the Moors river had a
tanalising plant situated nearby, the plant allowed some of this
chemical to escape into the river. It effectively wiped out all life
within the Moors for about half a mile downstream. Many of the fish
were found on the banks of the river having jumped out of the water in
an attempt to escape.

Just my experience.

Glenn

[Mark Jenkinson]

For what it's worth, I started off with a stainless steel catering
sink 20" X 20" X 11" high and welded up a simple press to sit this
into. I attach a flexible drainage hose to the plughole on the bottom
of the sink which makes the drainage point mobile.... I put the hose
into the next empty container as they fill.

I use a 20 ton jack with 16" racks and it produces up to 50Ltr / 11gal
at about 70% yield per pressing depending on apples used.

Mark.

[Alex Coram]

>
> That's some press.  You appear to be using tanalised half rounds, if
> correct, they are pressure treated with something which is toxic.

Hi Glenn,
Those pics were from our first cider-making foray in 2007, before I'd
quite come to realise the significance of materials used in the
process. You're right about the posts being tanalised, and we did
think perhaps not the best thing to have used, but the posts on top
were only spreading the load from the bucket so had hardly any contact
with the juice and the posts around the outside of the trough were
superfluous as long as the press isn't overloaded. We took a fairly
experimental attitude when drinking it and no deaths have yet been
recorded. I'll hopefully knock up something a bit smarter this year
based on the same idea.

Best, Alex

[Glenn Sutcliffe]

Hi Alex,

Relief to hear that, I think your press is great.

Glenn