Talking about ingredients.... Single Variety Ciders

[Nigel]

This may be the stupidest question to date, but.... Following on from
the discussion about Perry / Pear cider and the fact that only 75% of
the juice content needs to be pear juice, I was wondering about the
single variety ciders.

What constitutes a 'Single Variety' cider? Does it have to be made
with 100% of that single variety (as the name suggests) to enable the
producer to use the description, or at least 75% or only the majority
of fruit used? Are there any laid down 'rules' or guidlines?

The reason for my question is that I have read in many places that it
is (partly) the blending and balancing of the flavours, acidity and
tannins that produces a good cider. Can single variety producers
'balance' by blending without giving up the right to call their
product a 'Single Variety'?

Nigel

[Mark Shirley]

I've never seen any guidlines myself, though presumably Trading Standards may take an interest if they had reason to believe the cider wasn't what it said it was, though how they's know without genetic testing is anyones guess.

 

My understanding is that with wines, which are frequently marketed as SV's these days, it is common to blend with a smaller percentage of other grape wines to achieve a better balance, without the need to advertise the fact on the bottle. Win in the finished wine. Wine writers often mention the other grapes in a SV wine when reviewing them.

 

You may have noticed on the cider list for the Swan & Rushes festival this weekend that the Ross-on-Wye Cider & Perry Co have a 'Foxwhelp Dry Blend'. The word 'blend' indicates that Mike has probably added a touch of something else to give the cider a better balance, maybe a smidgen of a Sweet to tone down the acidity. I find this a good compromise, you're still getting essentialy a SV with Foxwhelp as the main flavour component, and no fibs are being told about what it actually is....

 

Mark

http://rockinghamforestcider.moonfruit.com/
http://rockinghamforestcider.blogspot.com/

[Ray Blockley]

Nigel wrote:

> This may be the stupidest question to date, but.... Following on from
> the discussion about Perry / Pear cider and the fact that only 75% of
> the juice content needs to be pear juice, I was wondering about the
> single variety ciders.
>
> What constitutes a 'Single Variety' cider? Does it have to be made
> with 100% of that single variety (as the name suggests) to enable the
> producer to use the description, or at least 75% or only the majority

> of fruit used? Are there any laid down 'rules' or guidelines?

>
> The reason for my question is that I have read in many places that it
> is (partly) the blending and balancing of the flavours, acidity and
> tannins that produces a good cider. Can single variety producers
> 'balance' by blending without giving up the right to call their
> product a 'Single Variety'?

Hi Nigel,

I'm sure Andrew will give the definitive answer, but to start off, it is not
a stupid question and is one that's been debated numerous times. AFAIK there
is no framework, guidelines or rules of what constitutes a Single Variety
cider and no requirement to achieve a certain percentage of fruit content
either. Some apples (ie Kingston Black) are supposed to be about perfect in
balance between acidity, tannins, sugars, etc. to give a true single-variety
cider. However, others may need more acidity or less acidity. I would
imagine that most SV ciders are blends - but where one variety is by far the
highest proportion. An example is typical bittersweets like Yarlington Mill
which is quite low in acid - so the flavour could be insipid or the
fermentation could be troublesome and prone to infection due to too low
acidity. Blending with a lower proportion of sharp fruit (but not mentioning
it...) could result in an SV Yarlington Mill. But so could spooning in some
Malic Acid powder to raise the acidity / lower the Ph...

My thoughts are that the predominant variety needs to be a very high
proportion in order to qualify for an SV tag. Maybe the winemakers who call
their wines ie: Shiraz/Merlot are closer to the point? So would Yarlington
Mill / Royal Somerset read better? Even Yarlington Mill / Bramley sounds
better than Yarlington Mill / Malic Acid :-)

Cheers,

Ray
http://hucknallciderco.blogspot.com/

[Mark Shirley]

>Even Yarlington Mill / Bramley sounds
> better than Yarlington Mill / Malic Acid :-)
>
> Cheers,
>
> Ray
> http://hucknallciderco.blogspot.com/
>

Although Yarlington Mill/Malic Acid might actually taste better! Blending
with Bramley for acid is very common, I certainly do it, but I can't help
thinking that one unfortunate side effect of this is that your diluting the
Yarlington flavour with juice from an apple no noted for it's stunning
flavour.

[Andrew Lea]

Mark Shirley wrote:

>
> Although Yarlington Mill/Malic Acid might actually taste better!
> Blending with Bramley for acid is very common, I certainly do it, but
> I can't help thinking that one unfortunate side effect of this is
> that your diluting the Yarlington flavour with juice from an apple no
> noted for it's stunning flavour.

I think I agree. If I were asked to make a Dabinett or Yarlington SV, I
would blend it off with malic acid (and have done at home) so the
essential cider flavour comes through but the acid is increased for
balance and good microbiological control during fermentation. If I were
asked to make a SV from something really harsh like Tremletts, I might
dilute it as well with sugar syrup before fermentation to make it less
than 100% juice, as well as adding acid, just to knock it back a bit and
make it more consumer-friendly. And don't forget that sweetening after
fermentation can also help to ameliorate those very dry flavours.

All this says to me that making palatable consumer friendly single
variety ciders, for the most part, is a 'recipe based' operation. The
only three apples traditionally regarded as suitable for SV treatment
were Kingston Black, Stoke Red and some of the less acid Foxwhelp
cultivars. I am of the school that believes there are few true SV ciders
(certainly from bittersweets) that can stand up on their own merits and
that don't have severe technical faults, and so most that claim to be
are actually ameliorated in some way or other. It is no accident that
heavy bittersweets were often 'macerated' in the past (especially in
France) in part to reduce the highly tannic flavours by controlled
oxidation.

The best ciders are nearly always blended. SV ciders are a marketing fad
which have paradoxically come about through a greater consumer
understanding of named grape varieties eg Chardonnay, Sauvignon
Blanc etc and their specific contribution to wines. Like it or not,
there is far less 'varietal' character in most cider apples than in wine
grapes and we can't do much about it. And again, few apples have the
technical ability to be fermented out on their own to provide a
palatable drink without blending, whereas most wine grapes do (though
even there, blending often leads to an improvement).

The only mitigating factor perhaps as regards SV ciders is that it does
get the names of individual cider apples out there in the public eye.

Can't help with the exact legal position / definition, I'm afraid.

Andrew

--
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
http://www.cider.org.uk

[SimonDay]

In wine, you need 85% of a single variety to be able to label as
such. This also applies to vintage and provenance, (although this is
changing with the new 3 tier quality system PGI (85% from region) /
PDO (100% from region) / table wine (?) with the EU wine reforms that
are soon to be law). When I spoke with our local trading standards
man the other week (we're applying for PGI status for our ciders) we
had a similar, yet ultimately inconclusive discussion. He seemed to be
happy that I would follow wine guidelines!

In our two single varieties so far, they have been 100% of the stated
variety (Dabinett in 2007 and Kingston Black in 2008) I did adjust
acidity with a pinch of malic in the Dabinett, but the KB needed no
adjustment (and went on to win overall champion at the Hereford Cider
Competition this year - so I must be doing something right)

We're bravely stepping well over the 7000 litre limit this year, which
gives me lots of scope for experimentation, and I was rather taken
with Somerset Redstreak as a possible single varietal for 2009 - it
showed promise last year, but I needed it for blending into our 2
blended ciders.

Of course, I approach cider making from a winemaking perspective, and
process single varieties separately, and blend during or post
fermentation to achieve the styles I want. I come to this with no
"baggage" and feel free to experiment - I'm sure there'll be mistakes
along the way - but I'm having a lot of fun! In terms of sales and
marketing, there is a certain type of customer who is drawn to single
varieties, but I've never tried to push them as better or more
exclusive than the blends - they're just a different style of cider.

On launching the Kingston Black at the Cheltenham Food and Drink
festival, I was interested to note how many customers said "I've tried
that one before" (which was impossible, as it had only been released
the previous day) It would seem that "Kingston Black" is perceived as
a brand name by some customers rather than the variety name. I hadn't
foreseen that one!

Cheers

Simon Day
Once Upon A Tree

[Mark Shirley]

> On launching the Kingston Black at the Cheltenham Food and Drink
> festival, I was interested to note how many customers said "I've tried
> that one before" (which was impossible, as it had only been released
> the previous day) It would seem that "Kingston Black" is perceived as
> a brand name by some customers rather than the variety name. I hadn't
> foreseen that one!
>
> Cheers
>
> Simon Day
> Once Upon A Tree

I've experienced this many times on cider bars. We had an excellent,
sweetish Blakeney Red Perry from Day's Cottage in Glocs at Leicester several
years ago, which proved to be very popular. The next year there were
frequent requests for 'that Red Perry', it didn't matter where it was from,
or who had made it, the Day's Cottage bit just hadn't sunk in. We also got a
few requests for 'the Herefordshire Cider' which I could never understand as
we always had several...

The big marketing people are obviously well up on this concept, as seen when
Aston Manor tried to get D. Gwatkin to change the name of his Kingston Black
cider because they claimed it was infringing on their Kingston Press brand
name. Perhaps there was a tiny element of truth in it...

[Nigel]

It is interesting how a small but growing knowledge in the consumer
can become a cause of confusion. Kingston Black does sound a bit like
a brand name rather than an apple, and I remember reading about the
'legendary' or 'rare' Kingston Black and thinking I had better try
some of that. I also believe I used to think that a single variety
cider would be 'special' and held in higher regard rather as a single
malt whiskey is. I guess all consumers bring their own preconceived
perceptions to all products to a degree.

As someone relatively new to the cider world, I still need to try
everything that comes my way to educate myself in the breadth and
depth of what is available (excellent!). This means I have bought many
industrially produced ciders that claim to be 'special', 'reserve',
'vintage', 'single orchard' or any number of other virtues which,
although maybe based on fact, become successful marketing tools. It
seems to me that the larger producers are trying to present themselves
as being small craft producers on some of their products. I guess the
product is just another step on the road to discovery, and if it leads
consumers to seek out the better ciders, then that's great.

It has taken me a while to track down some Sheppy's Kingston Black. I
am in Hereford this weekend so shall search out your KB also Simon.
What a great journey cider education can be!
Nigel

[michael lewis]

My own experience of single variety ciders has led me to believe that the majority really are just one single variety. Most of them are not balanced drinks, however nice thay may taste. Almost none of them have a proper finish, for example. Although they are interesting from a tasting point of view, they would certainly be better as drinks if only one other variety was added. Kingston Black may be the only real exception to this.

Cheers

Mick Lewis





--- On Wed, 15/7/09, Nigel <ni...@broken-light.co.uk> wrote:

> From: Nigel <ni...@broken-light.co.uk>
> Subject: [Cider Workshop] Talking about ingredients.... Single Variety Ciders
> To: "Cider Workshop" <cider-w...@googlegroups.com>
> Date: Wednesday, 15 July, 2009, 4:25 PM
>
> This may be the stupidest question to date, but....
> Following on from
> the discussion about Perry / Pear cider and the fact that
> only 75% of
> the juice content needs to be pear juice, I was wondering
> about the
> single variety ciders.
>
> What constitutes a 'Single Variety' cider? Does it have to
> be made
> with 100% of that single variety (as the name suggests) to
> enable the
> producer to use the description, or at least 75% or only
> the majority
> of fruit used? Are there any laid down 'rules' or

> guidlines?

>
> The reason for my question is that I have read in many
> places that it
> is (partly) the blending and balancing of the flavours,
> acidity and
> tannins that produces a good cider. Can single variety
> producers
> 'balance' by blending without giving up the right to call
> their
> product a 'Single Variety'?
>

> Nigel
>
> >
>

[ta...@nexus-t.demon.co.uk]

I have had some SV ciders that I've thought were pretty decent, and I'm imagining those did have a little bit of blending just to balance out, but something I don't think has been mentioned on this thread is SV perry - some of the far and away best perry I've had has been labelled as SV, and I seem to see more SV perry than I do cider - for example at the Ross festival, there's always a great selection of interesting and limited SV perry from Olivers, Greggs Pitt, Seidr Dai, to name but a few. In these I can definitely taste different characteristics, like with differing wine grapes.

Is it just that there are varieties of perry pear that have been cultivated down the years to be good for SVs, or (which is my guess) is there something different about the chemistry of perry pears which means their flavour profile can work better as a SV?

Tania

Mick Lewis wrote:
> My own experience of single variety ciders has led me to believe that the m=
> ajority really are just one single variety. Most of them are not balanced =
> drinks, however nice thay may taste. Almost none of them have a proper fin=
> ish, for example. Although they are interesting from a tasting point of vi=
> ew, they would certainly be better as drinks if only one other variety was =

[Mark Shirley]

Is it just that there are varieties of perry pear that have been cultivated
down the years to be good for SVs, or (which is my guess) is there something
different about the chemistry of perry pears which means their flavour
profile can work better as a SV?

Tania

I think one of the reasons there may be more of a 'tradition' of SV perrys
(and I'm guessing here, can you tell?), is that different perry pears ripen
at different times, and when they do ripen, they need pressing immediately.
Pears in general, and perry pears in particular, seem to go from rock hard
to over-ripe and mushy in the blink of an eye, so it may be that different
varieties were naturally pressed and fermented seperately throughout the
season. I've also heard it said on many occasions that perrys made from
different varieties don't blend very well! I find this hard to understand,
but there may be a good reason behind it. I wish Charles Martell or Jim
Chapman well enough to invite them onto the Workshop we could do with some
Perry expetise.

On a related note, I notice that the provisional cider and perry list for
this year's Peterborough Beer Festival has much fewer SV's than there have
been in previous years.
http://www.peterborough-camra.org.uk/index.php?module=pbfcider&func=main

On a much more vaguely related note, I've just had a Swallowfields Perry at
the Criterion Cider & Cheese Fest in Leicester. Lovely.

Cheers, Mark
http://rockinghamforestcider.moonfruit.com/
http://rockinghamforestcider.blogspot.com/

[Tania McMillan]

Mark Shirley wrote:
> Tania
>
> I think one of the reasons there may be more of a 'tradition' of SV perrys
> (and I'm guessing here, can you tell?), is that different perry pears ripen
> at different times, and when they do ripen, they need pressing immediately.

That's something I hadn't thought off and wasn't necessarily aware of,
not being a grower - thanks for adding another perspective.

Sadly I'm London-based this weekend so will be missing out on all the
cider and perry goodness on offer in Leicester.

Tania

[Paul Shirley]

In message <4A5F8085...@nexus-t.demon.co.uk>, Tania McMillan
<ta...@nexus-t.demon.co.uk> writes

>Sadly I'm London-based this weekend so will be missing out on all the
>cider and perry goodness on offer in Leicester.

The Betjeman Arms in St Pancras station seems to have cider on every
time we visit - Crossman and Mr Whiteheads last weekend @£3/pint. Might
be worth a detour if the cider pangs sets in.
--
Paul Shirley

[Jez Howat]

Paul,

If you get a chance to look at the 'cidermap', it looks as though Simon
(Once Upon a Tree) has a couple of pubs supplied in London - but they look
like they may be a bit south of St. Pancreas.

Hope you have avoided the swine flu... or at least the media hype
surrounding it!! :-)

All the best

Jez

[Tania McMillan]

Paul Shirley wrote:
> The Betjeman Arms in St Pancras station seems to have cider on every
> time we visit - Crossman and Mr Whiteheads last weekend @£3/pint. Might
> be worth a detour if the cider pangs sets in.
>

Oh thanks Paul, great tip! That one wasn't on my radar so I'll make a
point of checking it out!

Tania

[C D-T]

Reviving an old thread about single variety ciders -  can anyone say which of the following cultivars would make a reasonable SV, preferably  without additives? All of them have been offered as SVs at one time or another by commercial brewers.
Eggleton Styre
Court Royal
Somerset Redstreak
Northern Spy
Sweet Alford
Sweet Coppin
Tremlett’s Bitter (seems doubtful)
Winesap (not Stayman's)
Dabinett
Yarlington Mill

[Andrew Lea]

On 26/08/2013 08:46, C D-T wrote:
> Reviving an old thread about single variety ciders - can anyone say
> which of the following cultivars would make a reasonable SV,

None. Everything on that list is far too far out of balance. Resist the
fad and pressure for SV's. Blending is the cidermaker's art.

Andrew


--
Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

[Martin@Briz]

Hi all,

A few comments about the various posts on this thread...

As has been discussed in other threads, isn't one of the great problems with "single variety" the variability of each season? I used to make a Kingston Black SV but gave up because some years (especially last year here in the UK) were very bad - the acidity was so high that I didn't drink it myself let alone ask someone to pay for the stuff. It'll get blended into this year's cider probably. Last year, a well-known cider-maker from down near Wells released their customary Kingston Black (normally good) but is was ghastly. I'm surprised Simon Day wants to go that route - Simon, Putley Gold 2010 vs. 2011; these were blends and vastly different, so why make things even harder by going for a single variety?

Regarding a comment about such-and-such "blend", possibly it might mean that this is a blend of different vintages rather than mostly a single variety with a bit of something else. Only the producer knows, but it would be nice to know.

Some SV ciders are "tweaked" chemically. I know this because one of my customers in the home brew shop I work in used to work in the laboratory of a well-known larger cider-maker not so far from Bristol [UK], adding the acidity regulators and the food colouring.

 

Martin 

[C D-T]

Hi Martin,
Your reply is very enlightening, do you mind if I include it in the cider apple booklet I'm putting together?
Accredited of course!
Cecilia

[Cheshire Matt]

Maybe it's the challenge of being able to get a good SV?  Yes, blending is the tool that sovles many problems.  But I know Simon enjoys the challenge of just doing something different and being creative.  Therefore he's going to relish trying to make the best cider he can.

As for "some SV ciders are tweaked".  I think you'll find that a maker who "tweaks" an SV will also tweak a blend.  ie they have got over the moral issue of messing with what they've got and taking an easier route to make something that's acceptable.  Bit of a cop out if you ask me.

The whole point being that apples do vary from year to year. Consistency is not always the name of the game - but celebrating the variety you can get from the humble apple is.

That's how I see it anyway.

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[Jez Howat]

Over the years I have come to terms with SV’s to a large degree. I still feel that the best a cider can be is blended, but do also like the individual characteristics of a single variety.

 

Not all varieties make SV’s though – well, they do but… you know what I mean! However, why limit things to single varieties? A number of producers who I respect a lot produce cider that is made from a blend of 2-3 specific varieties. As with SV’s, sometimes it will work and sometimes not… but it broadens the scope of making a balanced cider whilst bearing the characteristics of the varieties?!

 

There are no ‘rules’ that say you cannot do what you like, although I am always struck and impressed with the variation you can get simply from different sources of apples – Dabinet grown in Somerset is very different from Dabinet grown in Hampshire! Again, KB brown in Herefordshire takes completely different to KB grown in Hampshire (and/or KB grown in Dorset).

 

As for adjustments. Well, a lot of adjustments are made to make a cider more accessible to the masses conditioned view of what cider should taste like… though over sweetening is currently (and unfortunately) rife in the UK cider industry. I think this comes from producers trying a WKD or some such and believing that their full juice cider should taste the same to get maximum exposure to the taste conditioned masses – and then describing said sweet cider as ‘medium dry’!

 

Grump overJ

 

Jez

[Andrew Lea]

I have made a great SV from Dabinett plus malic acid from a bag to get
the balance to somewhere sensible and enjoyable. And that's probably
what the commercial producers do. But should that really be described as
'single variety'? No, I think not. It's a falsehood and implies that the
Dabinett on its own is more 'capable' than it really is.

Andrew

On 27/08/2013 13:51, Jez Howat wrote:
> Over the years I have come to terms with SV�s to a large degree. I still

> feel that the best a cider can be is blended, but do also like the
> individual characteristics of a single variety.
>

> Not all varieties make SV�s though � well, they do but� you know what I

> mean! However, why limit things to single varieties? A number of
> producers who I respect a lot produce cider that is made from a blend of

> 2-3 specific varieties. As with SV�s, sometimes it will work and
> sometimes not� but it broadens the scope of making a balanced cider

> whilst bearing the characteristics of the varieties?!
>

> There are no �rules� that say you cannot do what you like, although I am

> always struck and impressed with the variation you can get simply from

> different sources of apples � Dabinet grown in Somerset is very

> different from Dabinet grown in Hampshire! Again, KB brown in
> Herefordshire takes completely different to KB grown in Hampshire
> (and/or KB grown in Dorset).
>
> As for adjustments. Well, a lot of adjustments are made to make a cider
> more accessible to the masses conditioned view of what cider should

> taste like� though over sweetening is currently (and unfortunately) rife

> in the UK cider industry. I think this comes from producers trying a WKD
> or some such and believing that their full juice cider should taste the

> same to get maximum exposure to the taste conditioned masses � and then
> describing said sweet cider as �medium dry�!
>
> Grump overJ
>
> Jez

>
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[Handmade Cider]

I do a few S.V's and some blends with the characteristics (tannin's) of particular fruit to the fore. I never use chemicals to make up the lack in the fruit as one can get everything one needs from the fruit, although there are some producers targetting the craft cider market with chemically enhanced S.V's, which I really consider the to be the territory of the large producer and shyster.

I always make it clear to my customers which of my 'single varieties' contain another fruit to bring the flavour profile into balance.

Based on experiments with S.V's versus blends, I am slowly coming round to the view held by many on here that S.V's are novelty and one can build a far better, more complex blend which makes the most of the characteristics of the individual variety.

If I had a K.B. that turned out over acid I would go one of 2 routes; malolactic fermentation halted by SO2 addition or 15% michelin, sweet coppin or sweet alford, if you really must. MLF will however alter the flavour profile of the cider (not just the acidity), whereas 15% of another carefully chosen fruit will tame acidity and not effect the flavour profile too much.

Denis

--
Denis France
www.handmadecider.co.uk
07590 264 804

Company. No. 07241330

[Handmade Cider]

Andrew, I am not accusing you of being a shyster, we cross posted!

[Andrew Lea]

Well I think I was a self-confessed shyster wasn't I? Brought it on myself!

I take much your view on SV ciders and we have to ask quite why they have come into being at all. Like flavoured ciders I believe they are marketing driven inventions for "line extension" purposes. They uncritically take as their starting point the concept of single variety grape wines. However, that falls down because apples are not grapes. 

There are many grape varieties which (a) can make a balanced wine without blending and (b) have definite varietal character. In white grapes for instance we could name Sauvignon Blanc and Gewurtztraminer. But there are few if any cider apples which have a truly distinctive varietal character of that kind, and those that do eg Foxwhelp or maybe Yarlington Mill have other defects which rule them out for making single variety ciders. This is principally around acid levels, so that Foxwhelp has far too much acidity and YM far too little. Other heavy bittersweets eg Tremletts are far too tannic to be enjoyed without some blending and dilution and in any case have little unique truly varietal character. 

So to my way of thinking the whole SV cider bandwagon is based on a false premise. The only way to make them palatable for the most part is by 'tweaking' as has been described. Whether with acid from a bag, water from the tap, ML cultures from a laboratory or dilution with other apples makes little difference. They still need help to become commercially acceptable and as soon as you do that you are peddling a falsehood or, as in your case, you have to explain to the customers that what they think are SVs aren't that at all! They are blends in all but name. So why not celebrate good quality blends rather than indifferent SVs?

I have been around the food industry for a working lifetime so I understand the marketing mindset that breeds these ideas. Likewise with flavoured ciders. But just because I understand them doesn't mean I like them! 

Andrew

Sent from my iPhone

--

[Alan Stone]

Grump maybe - but totally justified!

Sent from my iPhone

--

[richard marlborough]

hi all

i had a carbonated single variety somerset redstreak cider in a 500ml bottle from what i believe to be a reputable cidermaker. it had an almost buttery taste which did suit me. 

will this cider be fake & have had chemicals added to it? how do you think it would have been carbonated? there was nothing on the bottle to say anything had been added.

cheers

rich

[Ray Blockley]

'Fake' is an emotive word... 'Commercial considerations' or 'Scale of Production' or 'Quality Assurance' or any word along similar lines may be more apt when considering a high volume maker of cider.

Ingredients labeling on alcoholic drinks is very limited - search online to see how weak it is. Carbonation is likely to be forced after filtering &/or pasteurisation too.

Ray

[Andrew Lea]

If I were making a commercial SV cider from a dry Somerset Redstreak cider base I would need to add some malic or citric acid to get the acid up from 0.2% up to 0.5% (or I might better have added the acid before fermentation to protect from infection). I might also add a bit of water to knock back the tannin, or I might add a bit of sharp cider like Bramley to kill 2 birds with one stone. Finally I would sweeten with sugar to around SG 1.012, add SO2, force carbonate and pasteurise. That would give me a nice commercial product. 

It's the sort of thing I do with much of my own cider though i use sharp apples 

not acid from a bag; it's a blend and not an SV. I find it's what many people like to drink. I don't think of it as fake. 

Andrew

Sent from my iPhone

[NICHOLAS BRADSTOCK]

Re SV vs blend.

It's a generally accepted rule - at least in wine circles - that 85% of the characterising grape (/ apple)  and 15% of some other is sufficient to allow a single variety declaration.  I understand that the rule applies also to 'vintage' (which nowadays is a declaration of the year of growing and no more than that).

Perhaps 15% of sharp apples is not enough?

Best

Nick

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[Andrew Lea]

Does the 85/15 'rule' have any legal or regulatory force for wines or ciders do you know Nick? Would it be accepted by Trading Standards as "Custom and Practice"? 

In any case I think in many cases 15% of sharp apples would not be enough if you were trying to make a palatable and balanced SV from a low acid (sweet or bittersweet) apple. Hence the need for acid from a bag, or just put up with one taste per customer and no repeat business!

Andrew

Sent from my iPhone

[Jez Howat]

I don’t think I agree 100% with Andrew on this one.

 

I do agree that an SV that has been adjusted (and there are plenty of them out there) isn’t an SV at all. For all his ‘public announcements’ Matt has something with the labelling (although I seem to recall this particular marching call has a long standing – and not always prestigious – history).

 

However, as an experiment I fermented a gallon of each of Stephen Hayes cider varieties, as well as a couple of other varieties that I use a lot of – a bit like following Ray’s advice to ferment as single variety before blending about 10 years after first hearing that advice from Ray:-) These were deliberately not messed around with – it was as much to see how they fermented and stored as it was for taste.

 

Well, all fermented well except for the Michelin (which was pretty poor last year to be honest). All were bottle conditioned. The Harry Masters and Kingston Black dropped quite a lot of secondary lees in the bottle. However, to taste I found:

 

Kingston Black, whilst sharp, was only mildly sharp with a delicate flavour – not big tannins

Harry Masters was much more tannic than the Dabinet – which had a very nice flavour to it

Yarlington Mill was actually rather disappointing as a single variety

Egremont Russet was a good, sharp SV with a lovely nutty flavour but a bit of an odd aftertaste

Michelin came across as the revelation for me – it is a gentle taste with a touch of acid and well as more tannin than I have previously credited it for.

 

There are good examples of single varieties out there… although most on this list will try them for experimental purposes which is probably not what the producers intend. As for the bad ones… I think someone has already suggested that these issues are not just about SV ciders – there will be issues across their range!

 

There is a lot of commercial bandwagon jumping and SV’s are a part of that. However, if you can find a good variety that produces something you are happy with, then I don’t see any issue with it… I have certainly continued the Egremont Russet SV this year – and it has gone down well with those who like an eastern counties style of cider.

 

Just to qualify all of this (and this is something that Andrew and I agree on) blends make the best cider – I would sooner have a really good blended cider than a really good SV cider… or both:-)

 

Jez

 

PS – My advice to people learning how to make cider is always going to be to learn how to make a really good and well kept blended cider before jumping on the SV wagon… the skill in understanding what makes a good cider is far more important in the first instance than doing something ‘quirky’. And if you do want to do something quirky… please don’t do it with Bramley!!!

[NICHOLAS BRADSTOCK]

Um

I believe that the UK FSA accepts it and that would follow acceptance somewhere in the horribly detailed EU wine regs.

However you'll have to google that for yourselves cos I'm on hols in a certain neighbouring Member State and many ' of latitude to the south of where you are and the local AOC is going down rather well.....

I note that only Golden Delicious seem to grow here - or perhaps will continue to do so until climate change allows us to grow say Viognier in Somerset....
N 

[Cheshire Matt]

Was going to reply earlier to support the idea of 2 or 3 varieties, relying
on the qualities of each, to create a good blend. This is something Mike
Johson, James Marsden and others do well. It's what I do too...

As for labelling... :) Whenever/whatever Jez is referring to about
longstanding call to action with questionable results, all I'll say is that
things move on. There probably wasn't a horsemeat scandal them; or a
zeitgeist of locally sourced with provenance market.

Now, whether a label requires a rigourous X% apple A, Y% apple B etc I'm
not sure. That seems to remove some of the craft of the maker. And I think
true cider making is more of an art than that kind of science.

Matt

------- Original message -------
> From: Jez Howat <jez....@btinternet.com>
> To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
> Sent: 27.8.'13, 20:16
>
> I don't think I agree 100% with Andrew on this one.
>
>
>
> I do agree that an SV that has been adjusted (and there are plenty of
> them
> out there) isn't an SV at all. For all his 'public announcements' Matt
> has
> something with the labelling (although I seem to recall this particular

> marching call has a long standing - and not always prestigious -

> history).
>
>
>
> However, as an experiment I fermented a gallon of each of Stephen Hayes
> cider varieties, as well as a couple of other varieties that I use a lot
> of

> - a bit like following Ray's advice to ferment as single variety before

> blending about 10 years after first hearing that advice from Ray:-) These

> were deliberately not messed around with - it was as much to see how they

> fermented and stored as it was for taste.
>
>
>
> Well, all fermented well except for the Michelin (which was pretty poor
> last
> year to be honest). All were bottle conditioned. The Harry Masters and
> Kingston Black dropped quite a lot of secondary lees in the bottle.
> However,
> to taste I found:
>
>
>
> Kingston Black, whilst sharp, was only mildly sharp with a delicate
> flavour

> - not big tannins
>
> Harry Masters was much more tannic than the Dabinet - which had a very

> nice
> flavour to it
>
> Yarlington Mill was actually rather disappointing as a single variety
>
> Egremont Russet was a good, sharp SV with a lovely nutty flavour but a
> bit
> of an odd aftertaste
>

> Michelin came across as the revelation for me - it is a gentle taste with

> a
> touch of acid and well as more tannin than I have previously credited it
> for.
>
>
>

> There are good examples of single varieties out there. although most on

> this
> list will try them for experimental purposes which is probably not what
> the

> producers intend. As for the bad ones. I think someone has already
> suggested
> that these issues are not just about SV ciders - there will be issues

> across
> their range!
>
>
>
> There is a lot of commercial bandwagon jumping and SV's are a part of
> that.
> However, if you can find a good variety that produces something you are

> happy with, then I don't see any issue with it. I have certainly
> continued
> the Egremont Russet SV this year - and it has gone down well with those

> who
> like an eastern counties style of cider.
>
>
>
> Just to qualify all of this (and this is something that Andrew and I
> agree

> on) blends make the best cider - I would sooner have a really good
> blended
> cider than a really good SV cider. or both:-)
>
>
>
> Jez
>
>
>
> PS - My advice to people learning how to make cider is always going to be

> to
> learn how to make a really good and well kept blended cider before
> jumping

> on the SV wagon. the skill in understanding what makes a good cider is

> far
> more important in the first instance than doing something 'quirky'. And
> if

> you do want to do something quirky. please don't do it with Bramley!!!
>

[Andrew Lea]

Thanks! Sorry to interrupt your hols. You can leave the Goldens where they are I think! The Viognier is a 
different matter. But it would have to get a good deal warmer for it to do well here I suspect. Sad ;-)

Andrew 

Sent from my iPhone

[richard marlborough]

thanks to all, especially andrew & jez.

that has put my mind to rest at least.i didn't mean to be disrespectful when i said "fake". i think the idea of fermenting single apple varieties (although they change from year to year & even tree to tree) & then blending must be what every newcomer should do. i have been trying lots of ciders from famous people & have been feeling a real dunce because many are not quite to my taste. i'm absolutely not thatchers gold but i'm not a tannin addict either. 

i have 30 gloucester & somerset cider trees but i also have 10 katy, coxs orange pippin & egremont russet. maybe one day i''ll make a decent cider:)

rich

[Jez Howat]

Richard,

Absolutely no problem.

For what it's worth I don't get that many bitter sharps, so use quite a lot of dessert apples to provide an acidic background. For the main blend, made from a single orchard, I rarely have to think about balance these days... The orchard owner has been clever in what he has chosen to grow by growing a lot of old fashioned dessert apples with moderately tannic cider apples.

For my other blends - one of which is deliberately more tannic and the other much sharper, the balance I am after is much more nuanced. For the western I want an acidic base to protect the cider and for the eastern I want a touch of body as well as lightness and bite... This can all be done with selection of apple varieties and not a single bag of any kind of powder...

Good luck with your cider making!

Jez

[greg l.]

Your definition of tweaks is very broad Andrew if you include using commercial cultures. Surely you should add SO2 to the list, preventing MLF is just as much of a tweak as initiating it, and adding SO2 to juice will surely tweak the flavour of the cider.

Greg

[Michael Cobb]

I tried an SV with KB from Glastonbury Abbey quite a few years back and it
turned out quite astringent. Most of my ciders are blends as the apples
come in from the orchard. One notable exception is the Beaty of Bath I
posted about a couple of days ago - there is just nothing else around to
blend with it and the apples will not keep so it gets fermented on its
own. I can always blend it later but I have been quite pleased with the
cider as an SV in previous years - but that is my taste buds and might not
suit everybody. Another advantage is that the fermentation of BoB ( and
possibly Rev Wilkes which will need pressing soon) will finish before the
end of the season (I hope with the pressing being three weeks later that I
still have apples to press when the starlings arrive and start to steal
them!) so I can bottle it and reuse the fermenter for another batch of
whatever is around at the time. An advantage for the home maker with
smaller fermenters that would not work for those with large and or
variable geometry tanks that get filled as the season continues!

Michael Cobb

[Andrew Lea]

Not sure. In the UK, acid ciders rarely start spontaneous MLF because it's too cold and the pH is too high. It is only our low acid bittersweets which typically go MLF on their own. So you'd have to add a commercial culture deliberately if you wanted to reduce acid by that route. That is by no means routine here and I think very few people do it and probably no commercial companies (because acid is a valuable ingredient that they'd otherwise pay for!).  So it really is an unusual tweak for people here. And the availability of such cultures is quite new (20 years?) so not at all traditional. 

Whereas SO2 has been used here sporadically since the 1660s and in serious commercial use since the late 1950s so it is hardly a tweak, simply a normal part of everyday commercial cidermaking. 

But yes I do see the point you are making!

Andrew

Sent from my iPhone

[Andrew Lea]

Woops typo. High acid = low pH of course! Sorry! 

Sent from my iPhone

[greg l.]

Perhaps because there is no tradition of craft cider in Australia I see it a different way. Ultimately you have to sell your cider so it all comes down to commercial considerations. "Traditional" can be seen as just another marketing gimmick, no offence intended. If a label stating your cider is SV will help sell the cider maybe it's worth considering, whether or not you have to make a few adjustments.

Greg

[David Llewellyn]

Ultimately though, for the sustainable development of the ‘real cider’ product, it must come down to the education of the consumer, don’t you think? Just as I believe the consumer needs to be educated that a real and proper cider should be viewed practically on a par with a grape wine, and should be prepared to pay as much or almost as much for a well-made proper cider as for a grape wine. By the same token the consumer needs to understand that a good cider is normally achieved by careful blending of apples with different attributes to end up with the right harmonious balance. I produce the odd single variety cider too, when I see that it makes a decent stand-alone cider, and I admit that I would indulge in the ‘gimmicky’ boasting of its status as a ‘single variety’!! But for the ‘sustainable’, long term development of real cider in its own right, the consumer mindset must be educated that from the point of view of varieties, you cant look at cider in the same way as you would look at grape wine, I think.

 

David Llewellyn

Tel: + 353 87 2843879

www.llewellynsorchard.ie

(previously 'fruitandvine.com')

---

From: cider-w...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cider-w...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of greg l.
Sent: 27 August 2013 23:30
To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Re: Talking about ingredients.... Single Variety Ciders

 

Perhaps because there is no tradition of craft cider in Australia I see it a different way. Ultimately you have to sell your cider so it all comes down to commercial considerations. "Traditional" can be seen as just another marketing gimmick, no offence intended. If a label stating your cider is SV will help sell the cider maybe it's worth considering, whether or not you have to make a few adjustments.

[richard marlborough]

very sad, but some truth at least?

there must be a way to sell cider in an "honorable" way. surely the m****s can be educated?

has any one tried putting all additives & split of juice on their bottles & marketing this as a selling point? i must be a geek but i would be fascinated if a label said that last year it was 60% of this & 10% of that & 30% of this, but this year our master cider maker changed it to this new  "mix" for this reason etc etc. (as long as it was true)

rich

[Nick Edwards]

I have found that many customers are very interested in how cider is made and are happy to be educated in this. They also want to know why different ciders taste different. What I find harder to agree with is that the customer needs educating in what cider should taste like! This is just too subjective.

In my experience, everyone tastes cider differently. A cider some think is bone dry (and may be technically dry by SG) may well taste medium-dry to others. Similarly, a medium or medium-dry may taste like a cocktail of chemical sweeteners to some. Whilst a cidermaker may think they've come up with a perfect blend, not all customers will agree due to dryness/ sweetness, what they find adverse flavours etc.

I made an SV Yarlington Mill a few years ago that had a taste resembling cough medicine (although this did soften with time). No sulphites, no sweeteners, acids, flavourings, water or other additives. Whilst not everybody liked it, around half that tried it did and it all sold.

Without the customers, I suspect many of us would reduce our levels of production dramatically. So there must be value in giving them something they like rather than something we think they should like. Maybe the 'masses' should educate the cidermakers!

Magners are credited with driving the cider revival and many do think cider should be sweet and fizzy and packed with chemicals (and possibly even have got close to an apple somewhere in its making). However, I have increasingly found a move towards dry and pure ciders over the last couple of years. Long may it continue! This, to my mind, is more due to customers trying new things rather than us educating them (doesn't the education come after the taste when they want to know why it's different, rather than before?).

Those of us who sell commercially need to remember who's buying our ciders. Markets change and we need to respond. If the customer doesn't like a cider, whether it's an SV or a blend, is he wrong?

Regards

Nick

Sent from my Windows phone.
Nick Edwards, Ciderniks
07885 296789

---

From: David Llewellyn
Sent: 27/8/13 23:47
To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [Cider Workshop] Re: Talking about ingredients.... Single Variety Ciders

Ultimately though, for the sustainable development of the ‘real cider’ product, it must come down to the education of the consumer, don’t you think? Just as I believe the consumer needs to be educated that a real and proper cider should be viewed practically on a par with a grape wine, and should be prepared to pay as much or almost as much for a well-made proper cider as for a grape wine. By the same token the consumer needs to understand that a good cider is normally achieved by careful blending of apples with different attributes to end up with the right harmonious balance. I produce the odd single variety cider too, when I see that it makes a decent stand-alone cider, and I admit that I would indulge in the ‘gimmicky’ boasting of its status as a ‘single variety’!! But for the ‘sustainable’, long term development of real cider in its own right, the consumer mindset must be educated that from the point of view of varieties, you cant look at cider in the same way as you would look at grape wine, I think.

 

David Llewellyn

Tel: + 353 87 2843879

www.llewellynsorchard.ie

(previously 'fruitandvine.com')

---

From: cider-w...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cider-w...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of greg l.
Sent: 27 August 2013 23:30
To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Re: Talking about ingredients.... Single Variety Ciders

 

Perhaps because there is no tradition of craft cider in Australia I see it a different way. Ultimately you have to sell your cider so it all comes down to commercial considerations. "Traditional" can be seen as just another marketing gimmick, no offence intended. If a label stating your cider is SV will help sell the cider maybe it's worth considering, whether or not you have to make a few adjustments.

[Nick at Ciderniks]

Hi Rich

I do! Here's the label for my KB



For other ciders that are made with a mix of apples or blended, not always possible - the label would end up bigger than the bottle, but I do give details of apple mixes on my website, where relevant, or if people ask

Regards

Nick

Nick Edwards
Ciderniks – Cider from Kintbury

E-mail: ni...@ciderniks.com
Telephone: +44 (0)7885 296789
Website: www.ciderniks.com

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[Nick at Ciderniks]

Not sure why my label came through 4 times - I only sent it once. Also noticed that it doesn't show up on my mobile, so for those who can't see the wording, it says: "Kingston Black - A naturally fermented cider made from pure Kingston Black apple juice pressed by hand in Kintbury. Contains no sulphites or other additives."

[richard marlborough]

hi

that's what i would like but i understand a lot of punters would not be THAT interested & i can see with already tiny margins many producers would not want to get involved with pointlessly complicated labels.

i would be very interested if a bottle said "typically 60% yarlington mill, 20% kingston black & this year we have used a mix of blah blah"

that's just me i suppose