No heirs, but want to grow more pears, two-leader tall spindle?

[Tom Hanlon]

I started planting pears 5 years ago, I should have *some* fruit next year. 

That is feeling like a long time to wait for whatever I plant this next spring. 

I have plenty of pear wildlings that produce but I would like more named varieties. 

I am topworking as I go and that is probably the quickest route to production. 

I still would like some more pears before I grow old. 

Any one here tried two leader tall spindle high density pears ? 

see http://fruitgrowersnews.com/index.php/magazine/article/high-density-system-can-increase-pear-yields

Please share your experience or thoughts. 

I have espaliared one apple and one pear, I could espalier or cordon a few more pears. 

Would that lead to earlier production? I assume it would but curious if anyone has experience to share. 

Thanks, 

Tom

[Claude Jolicoeur]

There are a couple of sayings about pears, and in particular about perry pears...
- When you plant a pear tree, it will be your grandchildren that will profit from it
- A pear tree grows for 100 years, then is in full production for 100 years, and will finally take another 100 years to decline and die.

Admittedly, in our modern world, few people are patient (and long lived) enough to wait that long. But we should always remember that this is the way pear trees behave naturally!

[Wes Cherry]

I planted a row of Perry pears on ohxf97 this year along these lines. 2 leaders split along the lower wire.   Trees planted on 12' centers.   Then allow three uprights spindles coming off of each of those leaders - so you end up with a tree that looks like a menora.

Seems like a good way to split the vigor and keep tree height manageable.

-'//es Cherry

Dragon's Head Cider

Vashon Island, Wa US

www.dragonsheadcider.com

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[Dougal]

As you probably know, Tom, it is the rootstock rather than growing method that will determine how soon your trees crop.

I have no experience with pears on two leader spindle but at my day job we have planted a few thousand apples in that format this year.  There are some very important structural considerations for spindle.

Consider an acrobat balancing on top of a wooden pole.  Imagine that when he learns the trick he holds onto a ladder beside the pole.  If he is perfectly balanced and the pole is sufficiently strong, the pole will keep him up.  If he falls away from the ladder, he will pull the ladder over and there will be a mess on the ground.  If he falls towards the ladder, the ladder will be knocked over and there will be a mess on the ground.  And if the pole is too weak for his weight, it will bow in the middle and snap, and there will be a mess on the ground.

The engineering of tall spindle support is such that the trees must be planted exactly in line with the wires so that the tree grows perfectly vertical and does not pull or push into the wires.  There must also be sufficient wires along the length of the trunk so it does not bow.  If it grows straight and vertical, it can then balance a crop load.  Tree movement causes the trunk to thicken and that means vegetative growth opposed to fruit growth so, again, there must be sufficient wires in the head and the tree must be well attached.  Further, winds often set up a wave action along the rows and this can put enormous pressure on the wires, snapping off too-light foots at the end of the rows and bringing part or all of the row down.  Often whole rows will snap off at the graft union.  So do not skimp on using full rounds for support, use plenty of wires, especially in the canopy, attach trees well and anchor the support rows very well.

So that is talking about tall spindle but you are asking about double leader.  The issue here is that you no longer have a straight trunk to take the crop load.  Instead, each leader is bearing fruit weight on a curve leading to the main trunk.  What you must understand is that the wires must now take a huge weight-bearing role instead of just a balancing role.  As a result, you may need heavier, closer spaced poles, higher gauge wire and very strong anchors.

Double leader planting makes a lot of sense, especially economically, but its support system must be well planned.

[Tom Hanlon]

Thanks Dougal, Claude and Wes, 

I do understand the importance of rootstock in terms of cropping. 

Here in Fireblight prone Midwestern USA we do not have much choice for dwarfing pear rootstock, quince is out due to firebight. Leaving us with the OhF rootstocks that are not significantly dwarfing. 

Terrence Robinson from Geneva really believes in Tall Spindle for apples and I think he is probably correct there and the apple industry supports that style of high density planting. 

His claims for pears high density tall spindle on non-quince rootstocks are less certain. I was looking to see if someone can verify his claims that a tall spindle like system of tying down branches below vertical to induce fruiting, and the like are a success with pears. 

An article in support..

http://www.goodfruit.com/eastern-growers-plant-new-pear/

A presentation that I consider mixed..

http://www.coloradofruit.org/pdf/2014pdftalks/TRobinsonPear.pdf

He states that high density pears work, but he mentions root pruning and trunk scoring and chemical growth inhibitors, making it sound complex. 

He shows yields at 4 years out, so that is not too long really. 

Since I am small scale though I would be tempted to do something more labor intensive like cordons or espalier. 

Whatever it takes to get things going quicker.

I think I am going to preserve every established pear that I have and focus on topworking, that seems to be the best route. 

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Tom

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[David Llewellyn]

Tom, what is the danger with quince rootstock re fireblight? I thought fireblight infected through the flowers, and if the quince is a rootstock, I assumed it couldn't get infected even if it produced suckers? Or is it the problem that if the pear tree gets partially infected, the fireblight travels to the root and kills the rootstock outright?

I have grafted various perry pears on quince, which are just about to be planted in permanent positions. This is my way of trying to overcome the exact problem of "pears for your heirs" that you are trying to overcome, and I can only hope for success but I won't know for several years obviously.

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[Dana A. Glei, Budding Cider Maker in Sonoma County]

Hi, 

I was looking for some advice regarding pruning Perry Pears and came across this thread.  Tom Hanlon, how did you make out on your Perry Pears?

I am familiar with the training methods advocated by Terrence Robinson for apples (my family in Michigan uses the Tall Spindle system to grow dessert apples:  Honeycrisp, Gala, etc.).  But, my Dad cannot give me much advice about pruning pears.  Although he has been growing apples (and some pears) his entire life, he says he still doesn't understand now to prune pears.  Given their well-known susceptibility to fire blight and their strong tendency toward upward growth, I am questioning whether it is advisable to prune Perry Pears like I would prune an apple tree.  I fear that heavy handed pruning (i.e., cutting back all upright growth leaving a long stub to try to force the tree to generate a new, better-angled branch) may invite fire blight and/or invigorate the tree so much that it makes my problem much worse.

I have no heirs, and I realize that I have embarked on a Fool's errand.  Nonetheless, some idiot planted 5 ornamental pear trees (Pyrus calleryana) in our backyard.  So, I don't have anything to lose by topworking some of them.  I started topworking one of them in March 2018.  I bark grafted 7 Perry Pear cultivars that I got from Corvallis (USDA repository):  Brandy, Barnet, Barland, Blakeney Red, Red Pear, Hendre Huffcap, and Butt.  Unfortunately, Hendre Huffcap and Butt did not "take."  However, I do have successful grafts of the others.

One of the other ornamental pears had to be cut down in the fall of 2017 because it was the leaning tower of Pisa.  I groomed some of the watersprouts from the stump and then in Jan/Feb of 2019, I cleft grafted Red Pear and Barnet onto them.  All 6 grafts "took" (which amazed me).  I ended up cutting off 3 of them in June, leaving 2 Red Pear and 1 Barnet. I was going to cut off 2 more leaving only one Red Pear scion, but Steve Selin (South Hill Cider in Ithaca, NY) advised me to keep all three and braid them together to help support the graft unions.  He has had difficulty with Perry Pears breaking off at the graft union once they start fruiting.  So, that is what I did this summer.   FYI:  The tallest scion (Red Pear) of the tripod is now 89" tall from the ground, having grown 77" above the graft union since ~Feb 2019.  I know it is going to be a big tree.  There is no way around that.

Now, I am pondering how to prune my tripod in late Jan when it is fully dormant.  My inclination is to head the leader at maybe 32" (just above the top of my "braid") and then cut off all the upright laterals (anything growing at <45 degree angle from the leader) above an outward facing bud to try to force the tree to create a new, better angled branch.  [See 1st Picture (RedPearBarnet-Tripod-Grafted-Feb2019.jpg); red lines indicate where I am thinking about cutting.]  Or maybe I try the 2-phase pruning method suggested by Dan Samek in https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/cider-workshop/perry$20pears%7Csort:date/cider-workshop/b2bxtqm-F2g/ZNc8VGHzCAAJ?  So, my question: is such heavy handed pruning a bad idea with Perry Pears?  Would it be better to wait until a hot summer day in early summer to prune it (creating less risk of fireblight and inviting less vigor)?   Here is Northern CA, the winter is usually very rainy (esp. Dec-Feb), but the summer (May-Sept) is hot and dry.

I also have a 1 year old grafted Red Pear (grafted onto P. calleryana seedling).  Again, I am thinking to cut off all the upgright growth to an outward facing bud on a long stub.  [See 2nd and 3rd pictures]

Any pruning advice with respect to Perry Pears would be most welcome.

Cheers,

Dana

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[mjbeck]

Out of my league 

Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

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[Wes Cherry]

Doesn’t directly answer your question, but i have pears on ohxf87 planted on 8’ centers.  Two leaders are split along the wire.  Then i allow 2-4 leaders sprout up from those two leaders.   They are still growing and past the top wire of 10', but it has distributed the vigor, i think.  Got a pretty good first crop on them last year.

As for pruning for spread, most pears just like to grow upwards no matter how you prune them.  You have to tie down to get anything remotely horizontal.

I’ve also done braiding with apple grafts.  It looks neat as they fuse as they grow.  I usually eventually train one as the leader and two are tied down to form the first lateral branches.

-Wes

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<RedPearBarnetTripod-Grafted-Feb2019.jpg><RedPear-pic1-1yrTree-Grafted-Feb2019.jpg><RedPear-pic2-1yrTree-Grafted-Feb2019.jpg>

[Dana A. Glei, Budding Cider Maker in Sonoma County]

Thanks, Wes. You said you got your first crop last year. Just out of curiosity, how many years did that take? I'm wondering how long I'm going to need to live to see my pears come to fruition :-). When Tom Oliver talks about Perry pears taking 30-50 years to get to full production, I understand why my Dad warned me of the well-known adage (You plant pears for your heirs).

Last spring, I did some tying down of limbs on my topworked pear with some success. Perhaps I will try a combination of different things (tying down vs. pruning) and see what works best. I am prone to experimentation.

Last summer I did some pruning with the crew at my family's Orchard. It's so different than how I learned to prune as a kid. I feel like I don't know anything anymore. Seem like we were butchering the trees. But my Dad says that's what works best...for high-density dwarf apples anyway. The standard trees from my childhood are all gone. It looks more like a vineyard now than an apple orchard. Of course, my Dad doesn't have a clue why I would ever want to grow a pear that no one would want to eat. He thinks I should grow Bosc. (I didn't tell him about Barland, the pair that even the swine won't eat.)

By the way, Darlene Hayes brought a bottle of your Kingston Black SV to a party this fall. It was divine! Ever since Ellen Cavalli and Scott Heath visited you last summer, I've been wanting I go up to Western Washington and see the incredible things you all are doing up there. Someday...

Cheers,
Dana Glei
Budding Cider Maker
Cider Club Coordinator, Tilted Shed Ciderworks

[Tom Hanlon]

LoL, 

I was complaining about no pears 4 years ago !!!

Guess what.. No pears yet. 

The theilersbirne are large and have had only minimal pruning, 

The barland is also large and minimal pruning. 

The theilersbirne had locust damage a few years ago, and that stress caused some flowers on an upper branch, about 3 pears formed.

The following year a few pears on the same branch.

It is a large tree, and when it goes, it will go big, hopefully this year.

I grafted quite a few over the years, I was sort of hap-hazard topworking wild seedling trees, some very large. I have hendre huffcap here and there but after 3 years, no fruit. 

So the casual approach is a slow way to go, but not sure heavy pruning would have helped.

One of these years it will be crazy !!! 

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[Wes Cherry]

These are on semi-dwarfing rootstocks, so they will produce earlier than Tom’s heir's seedlings.

I also haveYellow Huffcap pears on the same ohxf rootstock that are largely unmanaged other than some slight branch thinning. Most of those had their first real crop this year, their 7th leaf. The ones tied with multiple leaders fruited in their 4th or 5th leaf, but the crop was somewhat smaller than the older trees.

Hope you can make it up sometime!

-Wes

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[jitd...@aol.com]

I planted 2 x Moorcroft and 1 x Helen's Early about 4 years ago on pyro-something - dwarf I think -  rootstock and had enough fruit this year for 3 gallons of juice. Mind you the SG was a little under 1.050 so I pepped it up with honey.  I haven't done much pruning because the main objective (I'm 72 & my son isn't interested in craft brewing of any description) was having some earlier pollen about than the apples for the bees.   I have let them go on  central leaders which are now well over fifteen feet, taller than my 7 year old apples (M101 but also on central leaders).  They look a bit like poplars with laterals growing up almost vertically all over the place.  I think I might hack them about a bit this year and weigh a few branches down a bit if there is a perry crop in prospect.  

Re Kingston Black - I had enough apples for my first single variety Kingston Black cider in 2018 which I am now drinking.  Extraordinary taste.  It's not sweet, but has a sort of toffee/ caramel flavour - a slow sipper by the fire with a friend rather than a washer down of unpasteurised cheddar of ham & mustard sandwiches.  

JD

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From: Dana A. Glei, Budding Cider Maker in Sonoma County <hard.to.the...@gmail.com>
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Sent: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 0:32
Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Re: No heirs, but want to grow more pears, two-leader tall spindle?

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[Dan Samek]

Another possible strategy is to plant some dwarfs in between the standard trees. They will possibly bear some fruit earlier and when the standards are big enough and start giving reasonable crops in say 20 years, you just take the dwarfs down.

Dne pátek 7. srpna 2015 18:13:51 UTC+2 Tom Hanlon napsal(a):

[Dana A. Glei, Budding Cider Maker in Sonoma County]

Thanks, Wes, Tom, JD, and Dan for your advice.  Clearly, I am in for a LOOOOONG wait to get fruit, especially on my P. calleyrana (standard size) rootstock.  I think Dan's suggestion might be a good idea for Tom.  For me, I am trying to grow a few Perry Pears in my tiny backyard that is already full of CA native and habitat plants that I am not willing to give up.  I don't have the space for a real orchard (truthfully, I don't even really have the space for the trees I am trying to grow).  I am an amateur cider maker making very small batches.  I just want a few tannic pears to help balance out my ciders (since I have difficulty getting any apples with notable tannins).  

Thus, I am rethinking my idea of pruning those Perry Pears heavily to try to get a tree with better structure.  I don't want to wait 50 years for fruit so that I am maximize yield for the next 100 years.  I am not likely to live another 150 years. 

So, I think I will follow Wes' advice and tie down limbs to as close to horizontal as I can given the strong upright tendency of pears.  I might also try bending over and tying down the leading shoot in late June. I will probably go easy on the pruning (esp. during the winter) to try to get them to convert from vegetative to productive growth faster.  I haven't planted the nursery tree yet, but maybe I will plant it at 45 degree angle to try to get it to fruit faster.   Dare I try bark ringing as well?