[Cider Workshop] Pommeau
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Richard
Apr 26, 2010, 12:47:55 AM4/26/10
to Cider Workshop
To all the GOM's which I am one of, I hoped this is the correct way to
start a new thread. I am interested in the collective wisdom on how to
go about making a Pommeau. Other than combining apple juice with
calvados I understand little. For example what is the optimum ratio of
juice to calavdos(say 40% ABV)? I seems to me that you want enough
alcohol to prevent fermentation. What kind of apples for the juice,
some tannin or just sweet? Would you clear the juice prior to blending
or just allow the aging period to do this? Barrel age, what type of
barrel, used or new? You get the gist. I have drunk it in France,
very little in the US and I am interested in trying to make some. It
becomes more feasible to make here with the proliferation of small
scale distilleries that are that are starting up with recent revisions
of laws regarding distillation.
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start a new thread. I am interested in the collective wisdom on how to
go about making a Pommeau. Other than combining apple juice with
calvados I understand little. For example what is the optimum ratio of
juice to calavdos(say 40% ABV)? I seems to me that you want enough
alcohol to prevent fermentation. What kind of apples for the juice,
some tannin or just sweet? Would you clear the juice prior to blending
or just allow the aging period to do this? Barrel age, what type of
barrel, used or new? You get the gist. I have drunk it in France,
very little in the US and I am interested in trying to make some. It
becomes more feasible to make here with the proliferation of small
scale distilleries that are that are starting up with recent revisions
of laws regarding distillation.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Cider Workshop" group.
To post to this group, send email to cider-w...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com.
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from Heather
Apr 26, 2010, 10:07:32 AM4/26/10
to cider-w...@googlegroups.com
This Pommeau is made in Salem, OR. I'v had it - it is very good. http://www.wanderingaengus.com/shop/
Ben Watson's Cider Hard and Sweet book talks about pommeau, but I can't seem to find my book at the moment. I'll look again later.
Heather
> Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 21:47:55 -0700
> Subject: [Cider Workshop] Pommeau
> From: rhand...@centurytel.net
> To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Ben Watson's Cider Hard and Sweet book talks about pommeau, but I can't seem to find my book at the moment. I'll look again later.
Heather
> Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 21:47:55 -0700
> Subject: [Cider Workshop] Pommeau
> From: rhand...@centurytel.net
> To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail. Get busy.
Andrew Lea
Apr 26, 2010, 5:06:03 PM4/26/10
to cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Richard wrote:
> To all the GOM's which I am one of, I hoped this is the correct way to
> start a new thread.
Well done, Rich, you passed the test!
> To all the GOM's which I am one of, I hoped this is the correct way to
> start a new thread.
> I am interested in the collective wisdom on how to go about making a Pommeau. Other than combining apple juice with
> calvados I understand little.
from the UK contingent since spirit production is tightly controlled and
I think only Julian Temperley produces anything like it see
http://www.ciderbrandy.co.uk/productspage.html second paragraph
> For example what is the optimum ratio of juice to calavdos(say 40% ABV)? I seems to me that you want enough
I have been looking through some (modern) French books and I have
gleaned the following:
Pommeau (sensu stricto) is of recent introduction and by French law did
not exist until February 1986. It is defined as a Norman aperitif at
between 16 and 18% alcohol, made from a mix of 2/3 of cider (or juice?)
and 1/3 of Calvados which has been aged in oak. The high alcohol as you
say prevents further fermentation. Of course French cider is already
naturally sweet so apple juice is not necessarily needed to make it
sweet - the books seem a bit unclear on this point. One describes it as
being a mixture of freshly pressed juice and Calvados or the Breton
equivalent. It is described in its manufacture as being similar to a
Port (which is a brandy-arrested early fermentation) or to a Pineau des
Charentes and the mixture aged in wood for 'several months'. Because
there is pectin remaining in the juice or lightly fermented cider, this
will precipitate out when the alcohol is added and therefore must be
filtered before bottling. I would imagine that relatively high tannin
varieties are used as would be common in normal French cidermaking.
I'm afraid I have no further information but perhaps some of the French
or UK expat contingent will know? I presume in the US you do not have to
stick to the definition as you would in France. According to my old
mentor Fred Beech, "Cyder Royal" was made in the 18th century by
distilling the contents of a barrel of cider and collecting the
distillate into another barrel of cider. He comments "with the
difficulty of determining the correct 'cut' in the different fractions,
it is not surprising that it was more notorious for its stupefying
effect than for any appreciation of its flavour"!
I guess you have the chance to make it to be almost anything you want it
to be!
Andrew
--
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
http://www.cider.org.uk
from Heather
Apr 26, 2010, 5:47:39 PM4/26/10
to cider-w...@googlegroups.com
I found my Ben Watson book! It kind of says the same thing as Andrew's French book:
"Pommeau is a lightly sweet, reddish amber liqueur (16 to 18 percent alcohol by volume, or about the strength of a fortified wine). It is made by blending Calvados or clear apple brandy into fresh sweet cider, usually at the ratio of one part brandy to two parts juice. The high alcohol of the brandy prevents fermentation of the fresh juice, which retains its fruity character. After blending (mutage), pommeau is aged in oak for eighteen months or more before bottling. It's especially good served as an aperitif with different kinds of pâtés or cheeses, but is also useful as a dessert wine and in cooking."
Some history - made by French farmers, marketing began in 1980s. In 1991, an official appellation... currently 60 producers in Normandy and 10 in Brittany, most of whom make apple brandy. "Because of the offical designation, it's no longer legal to call something "pommeau" that isn't made in the designated regions of France. The few American cidermakers who have made a similar product (like Mike Beck at Uncle John's Fruit House Winery in St. Johns, Michigan) generally sell it as an "apple dessert wine."
"However, pommeau is easy to make at home (where you can call it whatever you want) using your own fresh-pressed cider and some cider brandy or clear apple eau-de-vie. Use a sweet, fruity cider as the base [I'm assuming unferemented due to American use of the word cider], late-season russet apples and European bittersweets are particulary nice to include in the sweet cider blend. The proof, or percentage alcohol, of the brandy doesn't matter much; I have used cider spirits ranging from 40 to 65 percent alcohol (80 to 130 proof). Use the winemaker's formula for fortifying wines, known as the Pearson Square to calculate how much brandy you will need to add to create a pommeau with the alcohol content you want; shoot for 15 to 18 percent, since making it much stronger will result in a "hot" alcoholic flavor that will detract from the fruitiness of the sweet cider."
"The only problems I've ever noticed with homemade pommeau are that every so often a bottle of it will start to ferment and get somewhat funky-tasting (not enough brandy, and, more frequenty, it will drop a light sentiment [sic] to the bottom of the bottle. One way to avoid this sediment problem, and make a brighter, clearer pommeau, is to treat the sweet cider with pectic enzyme and let it precipitate before blending with the brandy. I usually put my pommeau into glass bottles that have a metal and rubber "Grolsch-type" closure, so that I can decant or rack again later if needed."
> Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 22:06:03 +0100
> From: y...@cider.org.uk
> To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Pommeau
"Pommeau is a lightly sweet, reddish amber liqueur (16 to 18 percent alcohol by volume, or about the strength of a fortified wine). It is made by blending Calvados or clear apple brandy into fresh sweet cider, usually at the ratio of one part brandy to two parts juice. The high alcohol of the brandy prevents fermentation of the fresh juice, which retains its fruity character. After blending (mutage), pommeau is aged in oak for eighteen months or more before bottling. It's especially good served as an aperitif with different kinds of pâtés or cheeses, but is also useful as a dessert wine and in cooking."
Some history - made by French farmers, marketing began in 1980s. In 1991, an official appellation... currently 60 producers in Normandy and 10 in Brittany, most of whom make apple brandy. "Because of the offical designation, it's no longer legal to call something "pommeau" that isn't made in the designated regions of France. The few American cidermakers who have made a similar product (like Mike Beck at Uncle John's Fruit House Winery in St. Johns, Michigan) generally sell it as an "apple dessert wine."
"However, pommeau is easy to make at home (where you can call it whatever you want) using your own fresh-pressed cider and some cider brandy or clear apple eau-de-vie. Use a sweet, fruity cider as the base [I'm assuming unferemented due to American use of the word cider], late-season russet apples and European bittersweets are particulary nice to include in the sweet cider blend. The proof, or percentage alcohol, of the brandy doesn't matter much; I have used cider spirits ranging from 40 to 65 percent alcohol (80 to 130 proof). Use the winemaker's formula for fortifying wines, known as the Pearson Square to calculate how much brandy you will need to add to create a pommeau with the alcohol content you want; shoot for 15 to 18 percent, since making it much stronger will result in a "hot" alcoholic flavor that will detract from the fruitiness of the sweet cider."
"The only problems I've ever noticed with homemade pommeau are that every so often a bottle of it will start to ferment and get somewhat funky-tasting (not enough brandy, and, more frequenty, it will drop a light sentiment [sic] to the bottom of the bottle. One way to avoid this sediment problem, and make a brighter, clearer pommeau, is to treat the sweet cider with pectic enzyme and let it precipitate before blending with the brandy. I usually put my pommeau into glass bottles that have a metal and rubber "Grolsch-type" closure, so that I can decant or rack again later if needed."
> Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 22:06:03 +0100
> From: y...@cider.org.uk
> To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Pommeau
The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail. Get busy.
Andrew Lea
Apr 26, 2010, 6:04:16 PM4/26/10
to cider-w...@googlegroups.com
On 26/04/2010 22:47, from Heather wrote:
> I found my Ben Watson book! It kind of says the same thing as Andrew's
> French book
Wikipedia in French http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pommeau_%28boisson%29
> I found my Ben Watson book! It kind of says the same thing as Andrew's
> French book
also says that for Norman AOC Pommeau the apples must be at least 70%
bitter or bitter-sweet (the French have 2 distinct classes) and that the
ageing must be in oak barrels for a minimum of 14 months.
Andrew
--
Wittenham Hill Cider Pages
www.cider.org.uk
greg l.
Apr 26, 2010, 9:27:17 PM4/26/10
to Cider Workshop
An important consideration in this style of drink is how much
fermentation to put the juice through before fortifying. You would
want as high a brix as possible in your juice. Some fortified wines
are made with grape juice that is only briefly fermented before adding
the spirit, then a long period in barrell to gradually oxidise to a
brown colour. Port is fermented to about 7% alcohol, Pommeau sounds
like a vintage port style drink, presumably a mix of cider, juice/
concentrate and spirit. If you don't bother with barrels, you may as
well just drink a cocktail of apple juice and brandy.
On Apr 27, 8:04 am, Andrew Lea <y...@cider.org.uk> wrote:
> On 26/04/2010 22:47, from Heather wrote:
>
> > I found my Ben Watson book! It kind of says the same thing as Andrew's
> > French book
>
> Wikipedia in Frenchhttp://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pommeau_%28boisson%29
fermentation to put the juice through before fortifying. You would
want as high a brix as possible in your juice. Some fortified wines
are made with grape juice that is only briefly fermented before adding
the spirit, then a long period in barrell to gradually oxidise to a
brown colour. Port is fermented to about 7% alcohol, Pommeau sounds
like a vintage port style drink, presumably a mix of cider, juice/
concentrate and spirit. If you don't bother with barrels, you may as
well just drink a cocktail of apple juice and brandy.
On Apr 27, 8:04 am, Andrew Lea <y...@cider.org.uk> wrote:
> On 26/04/2010 22:47, from Heather wrote:
>
> > I found my Ben Watson book! It kind of says the same thing as Andrew's
> > French book
>
Dick Dunn
Apr 26, 2010, 11:07:12 PM4/26/10
to cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Rich -
Adding on to what Andrew wrote, and taking on some of your questions
directly...
I've had limited (but nonzero) exposure to pommeau[x?]. The ones I've
had have been at fortified-wine strength like port or sherry, which
makes sense. That is 18-20% abv, as mentioned elsewhere.
You could take this up with Alan Foster, who's just down the road from
you. (OK, a ferry ride and a couple hundred miles down the road, but
you know what I mean.) Alan/White-Oak did a commercial pommeau that
was very good (except unfortunately for a bottle I took to Andrew some
years ago that was "off"...sigh...). He might be able to tell you more
about his process than you can get from just reading here'n'there.
> ...what is the optimum ratio of juice to calavdos(say 40% ABV)?...
For that it would be about 1:1, right?
> ...What kind of apples for the juice, some tannin or just sweet?...
Definitely some tannin. And some sharp as well as sweet.
Julian Temperley does a Kingston Black "aperitif" at 18% which is their
cider-brandy with KB juice. See the notes on www.ciderbrandy.co.uk -
there are two separate products in what we'd call the "pommeau" category.
>...Would you clear the juice prior to blending
> or just allow the aging period to do this?...
If you could mostly clear the juice I believe it would help, as this
sort of combination can throw a sediment anyway. And here's where
Alan's experience could help.
If you made pommeau as a product, presumably with a cider-brandy from
your own cider, would you also sell the brandy as such?
--
Dick Dunn rc...@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
Adding on to what Andrew wrote, and taking on some of your questions
directly...
I've had limited (but nonzero) exposure to pommeau[x?]. The ones I've
had have been at fortified-wine strength like port or sherry, which
makes sense. That is 18-20% abv, as mentioned elsewhere.
You could take this up with Alan Foster, who's just down the road from
you. (OK, a ferry ride and a couple hundred miles down the road, but
you know what I mean.) Alan/White-Oak did a commercial pommeau that
was very good (except unfortunately for a bottle I took to Andrew some
years ago that was "off"...sigh...). He might be able to tell you more
about his process than you can get from just reading here'n'there.
> ...what is the optimum ratio of juice to calavdos(say 40% ABV)?...
For that it would be about 1:1, right?
> ...What kind of apples for the juice, some tannin or just sweet?...
Definitely some tannin. And some sharp as well as sweet.
Julian Temperley does a Kingston Black "aperitif" at 18% which is their
cider-brandy with KB juice. See the notes on www.ciderbrandy.co.uk -
there are two separate products in what we'd call the "pommeau" category.
>...Would you clear the juice prior to blending
> or just allow the aging period to do this?...
If you could mostly clear the juice I believe it would help, as this
sort of combination can throw a sediment anyway. And here's where
Alan's experience could help.
If you made pommeau as a product, presumably with a cider-brandy from
your own cider, would you also sell the brandy as such?
--
Dick Dunn rc...@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
Dick Dunn
Apr 26, 2010, 11:20:00 PM4/26/10
to cider-w...@googlegroups.com
On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 06:27:17PM -0700, greg l. wrote:
> An important consideration in this style of drink is how much
> fermentation to put the juice through before fortifying...
> An important consideration in this style of drink is how much
None.
>...You would
> want as high a brix as possible in your juice. Some fortified wines
> are made with grape juice that is only briefly fermented before adding
> the spirit, then a long period in barrell to gradually oxidise to a
> brown colour. Port is fermented to about 7% alcohol, Pommeau sounds
> like a vintage port style drink, presumably a mix of cider, juice/
> concentrate and spirit...
> are made with grape juice that is only briefly fermented before adding
> the spirit, then a long period in barrell to gradually oxidise to a
> brown colour. Port is fermented to about 7% alcohol, Pommeau sounds
> like a vintage port style drink, presumably a mix of cider, juice/
No, it's a mixture of (apple) brandy and juice, the juice not being
fermented at all.
You're right about how port is made, but that works because the grapes
for port are very high in sugar even for wine grapes. It wants some
fermenting to drop the sugar level, else it would be way too sweet.
Apples don't have anywhere near that sugar level, so it's not necessary
(nor I suppose even desirable) to ferment the juice portion of a pommeau.
Andrew Lea
Apr 27, 2010, 2:43:45 AM4/27/10
to cider-w...@googlegroups.com
On 27/04/2010 04:20, Dick Dunn wrote:
>
> You're right about how port is made, but that works because the grapes
> for port are very high in sugar even for wine grapes. It wants some
> fermenting to drop the sugar level, else it would be way too sweet.
Also [and I appreciate this is straying off topic here] with a
>
> You're right about how port is made, but that works because the grapes
> for port are very high in sugar even for wine grapes. It wants some
> fermenting to drop the sugar level, else it would be way too sweet.
conventional red port you also need some pigment extraction from the
skins. Hence a short fermentation (only about a day and a half as I
recall) with intense maceration to extract colour is the norm.
greg l.
Apr 27, 2010, 7:28:25 AM4/27/10
to Cider Workshop
"You're right about how port is made, but that works because the
grapes
for port are very high in sugar even for wine grapes. It wants some
fermenting to drop the sugar level, else it would be way too sweet."
are ripened to a beaume of 20(36 brix) then briefly fermented a few
degrees beaume to make the grapes easier to press. The juice is then
fortified and aged for many years in oak until it gets a deep gold
colour. My point is the sugar is about 30 brix, the wine is so sweet
it sticks to your teeth.
I still think a pommeau without oak barrels is just a premixed
cocktail. A fellow near me sells a very similar drink, a calvados with
added juice, he says its quite popular.
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