Ancestral Method

[Petri Halmetoja]

Tried to google and search from books, but surprisingly difficult to find any detailed knowledge of the oldest method to do bubbles. Have anyone tried and mastered it? Would be great to hear experiences. Last weekend I get to taste Stefan Vetter cider which was amazing, and since then methode ancestral, rural, pet-nat etc has been on my mind. Up here apples lack tannins and tend to be low in pH, so keeving would be very difficult to do. That's why I had a vision to use ancestral to get bubbles, and perhaps residual sugar also. I have used bottle conditioning, but this is different due to lower alcohol and lack of additions. Also traditional method, but now would like it cloudy and with deposit. Looking for kind of a most natural way to do sparkling cider.

This is what i have found and what is missing:

* Normal start of the fermentation (native yeast), I suppose low nutrient apples would be best

* Around middle point of fermentation (2,5-3,5 alc vol) moving the batch to cold or using cooling on tanks to get cider to 0c, thus halting the fermentation (I know that pet-nats on winemaking usually don't have any cold breaks, continues directly to bottle)

? Some sources advice to filter at this point, don't really know why

? I also would like to know, what the pause on fermentation really does to the batch. Get nutrients drop to bottom? If aim is dry end product, does this something to taste profile?

* After few months, bottling and re-starting the fermentation by just temperature and time. No additions of sugar, or yeast.

? Any experiences how much residual sugar is expected and on the other hand is there something to be done to stop the fermentation.

* Enjoying it. I would like it cloudy and rough, so optional filtering or disgorging not interested.

Based on my knowledge, I suppose lacking nutrients have something to do with this. Instead of keeving or multiple rackings the batch is cold crushed and keeped cold for a long time. Also came to my mind that in Britain or similar weathers fermentation might be on pause for a while due to cold weather, but not that long time. Have you experienced anything which would associate with ancestral method?

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le mardi 29 août 2017 21:11:20 UTC-4, Petri Halmetoja a écrit :

Tried to google and search from books, but surprisingly difficult to find any detailed knowledge of the oldest method to do bubbles.

Petri,
All this is quite well described in The New Cider Maker's Handbook...
Yes the key to success in obtaining a sparkling cider with residual sugar is to start with low nutrient apples, make some rackings to decrease yeast biomass and nutrients, and keep things cool.

The filtering helps in reducing yeast number (and consequently nutrients), but isn't essential.

You should also understand that the nutrients (i.e. N) are taken by the yeast and incorporated to their biomass which contains approximately 10% N. When the cell dies, most of this N is eventually given back to the cider as the cell goes through autolyse - hence the importance of racking if you wish to prevent this.

Claude


 

[Petri Halmetoja]

Thank you Claude. I have read your book and got back to it many times, thank you so much for your contribution. But in this particular case I'm interested in the Ancestral Method as winemakers describes it. As I have understood a long mid-point pause in fermentation is needed by keeping temp at 0 c. And that leads to lack of understanding about the effects of cold pause before fermentation continues in the bottles. So to be specific, the only question left is what exactly this pause does to partly fermented cider?

Petri

[Andrew Lea]

On 30/08/2017 08:47, Petri Halmetoja wrote:

> I'm
> interested in the Ancestral Method as winemakers describes it. As I have
> understood a long mid-point pause in fermentation is needed by keeping
> temp at 0 c. And that leads to lack of understanding about the effects
> of cold pause before fermentation continues in the bottles. So to be
> specific, the only question left is what exactly this pause does to
> partly fermented cider?

My guess is that any long chilling at 0C may have something to do with
the need to shock our supersaturated tartrate salts from the wine before
racking. Otherwise they may crystallise later in the bottle.

Tartrate stabilisation is a standard procedure during winemaking. The
issue doesn't arise in cider because apples contain malic acid not
tartaric, and malate salts are much more soluble.

Just a thought ....

Andrew

--
near Oxford, UK
Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk
www.amazon.co.uk/Craft-Cider-Making-Andrew-Lea/dp/1785000152

[Petri Halmetoja]

Thanks Andrew! Sounds logical, so from that perspective there's no real purpose to do that with ciders. Unless there's something else going on, but I really can't imagine what it could be.

Br, Petri

[Gilbert SL]

Hi Petri,

I have just read your post, so forgive me being slow to reply ... you are probably happily making Methode Ancestrale by now?

I make cider this way most years (for family & friends rather than commercially these days), and have done so for more than 25 years.

My cidermaking is based on what I have been taught by others & my own experience, rather than scientific knowledge or any understanding of chemistry.

So, to get my method out of the way first ... I tend to use early season bittersweets for this, definitely looking to get some high tannin varieties in the mix. Having milled them , I let them sit for 24 hours & then press. The juice goes into stainless steel tanks. I ferment on the natural yeasts. The juice is then allowed to ferment at the natural temperatures of an unheated stone shed. Since the cider is made in late September, it has time to ferment a fair way before winter temperatures slow everything down. If early fermentation is very strong, I may rack (sometimes even twice), which I use as a method of slowing fermentation, and maybe keeping some sweetness in the finished cider.  At New Year I would expect it to have dropped to roughly half of its OG (so maybe 1.056 to 1.025ish). In the Midlands of the UK, fermentation will probably continue (if very slowly) throughout the winter. In February, I will be checking fermentation regularly as it picks up again. If it moves on well, I will bottle at around 1.010-1.008 into full-weight Champagne bottles. Then its a waiting game ... test occasionally. The cider should be poured carefully, ideally the whole bottle at once into a number of glasses, watching for the yeast deposit to start to move up towards the neck, at which point stop pouring, so as not to get that in the glass. 

I prefer crystal clear cider, and this method should make that (but I see that you may prefer cloudy). The cider will be 'dry' to most people's tastes, but may well be 'medium' in terms of specific gravity, even 'sweet' (see below).

I only recently found out the names "Methode Ancien", "Methode Ancestrale", "Pet-Nat", and of the 3, I prefer Methode Ancestrale, as it speaks of tradition & those who went before us. I believe that 'ancien' can mean both 'old' or 'ancient' (I like), but also 'former' (not the case for me).

So, pretty straightforward cidermaking ... the less you muck with it, the better it be. 

One day I would like to add freezing the neck & disgorging to this method, but that is really only for better presentation. No lees/dregs in the bottle, so you can pour with abandon.

***Occasionally, the cider will 'stick' at a much higher SG (anything up to 1.025 in my experience). If the weather is warm enough for fermentation, but it really does not want to progress, I will still bottle it, having waited for a few weeks to check that this really is the case. This makes a weak (maybe 3% alcohol) but wonderful, slightly sweeter cider allowing good fruit flavour, the sweetness balanced by the drier tannin & also the bubbles which 'dry' the flavour. It should be considered as a gift from nature!

***Natural fermentation ... I like to use the natural yeasts. That is how I began making cider, and still think it the way to make the finest ciders. However, I did have problems for a few years. My cider was getting strange sickly-sweet flavours that were really not nice. I threw away 1000s of litres. I meticulously cleaned, or even renewed all equipment, but it kept happening. Finally after maybe 3 years, having ruled out all else, I killed the natural yeasts, and added a bought yeast. I started in a sugar solution & added it to the freshly pressed juice. Bingo, all was good. I added this same yeast for maybe 4 years, and then decided to see if the 'bad' yeast had been driven out of my shed. It seems that it has. My cider has always been good since that time again. My point here is that yeasts build up in a shed, and that the 'natural' fermentation is all about what particular strains are dominant in your premises & on your equipment, maybe even on your apples (although that seems less important to me).

I hope this may be of some use to you. This method makes the cider that I most enjoy drinking.

Gilbert

Testing in mid-winter

Bottling time

[Gilbert SL]

One last thing ... I have also tried fermenting the cider out fully in the tank, in order for malolactic fermentation to take place (which I value in still ciders), and then bottling with added sugar.

I prefer the Methode Ancestrale, as it keeps the lightest, most delicate flavours in the cider.

[jitd...@aol.com]

Gilbert! 

Thank-you.  A sterling example to us more amateur cider makers.  I am sure this is the sane way forward if you have no ambition to see your product on supermarket shelves.  I would ask though, what are your early season bittersweet varieties? 

JD

 

 

--
--
Visit our website: http://www.ciderworkshop.com
 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Cider Workshop" Google Group.
By joining the Cider Workshop, you agree to abide by our principles. Please see http://www.ciderworkshop.com/resources_principles.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Cider Workshop" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to cider-w...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Gilbert SL]

Sorry, I've only just seen your question. 

I too am an amateur maker these days, although I did make to sell in the 1990s, which means I still have nice kit!

My early season varieties are Breakwell's Seedling, Nehou & Major. I also have a fair few Chisel Jersey & Ball's Bittersweet in a later-ripening orchard, which can also be used in this way, but tend to make a stronger, drier cider. These may be better suited to working out pretty much fully, and then bottling with the addition of up to 1 teaspoon of sugar per 75cl bottle. I tend to let the natural fermentation dictate my bottling method ... some years things go faster than others

[jitd...@aol.com]

Thanks Gilbert.  Sounds right to me. 

JD

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Gilbert SL <gilbertst...@gmail.com>
To: Cider Workshop <cider-w...@googlegroups.com>

--