Books on french cidermaking

[Bartek Knapek]

I am looking for books focused on french cidermaking techniques and apple varieties.

 

I have found:

• Guide pratique de la fabrication du cidre
  Rémi BAUDUIN, 2006

• Pommiers à cidre, variétés de France
  J.M. BORE et J. FLECKINGER, 1997

Have anyone read these, are they good?

 

What other books can you recommend?

 

thanks //Bartek

[Andrew Lea]

Yes I have both books. They cover very different ground. 

Bauduin is a very good modern practical manual for small scale French cidermaking via keeving. 

Bore and Fleckinger is a very detailed Pomona but contains nothing at all about cidermaking. It is a long set of  descriptions of individual French cider apples and their orcharding characteristics. 

Andrew 

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[Claude Jolicoeur]

Bartek,

You may also consider my own "Du pommier au cidre" (Claude Jolicoeur, 2016, Édition Le Rouergue)

It is a rewriting in French of The New Cider Maker's Handbook, and adapted for the French cider makers, hence giving much more emphasis on the techniques and cider apples used in France.

As of the 2 you have mentioned, they are in effect excellent books, but as Andrew wrote, The Boré and Fleckinger book is only a review/description of the French cider apple varieties, and the Bauduin is a very small booklet (68 pages) that essentially describes the keeving process.

Claude

[Wayne Bush]

Bartek, not sure what level you are aiming for.  Before I discovered Andrew's and Claude's books, I picked up a French booklet by j.a. chandon called "Faites votre cidre" which was a helpful basic guide for a first-time cider maker and is available here:

 

 http://www.utovie.com/catalog/index.php?d_category=13&controller=categorywww.utovie.com.  

I think the leading French cider training center is  Le Robillard in Normandy--see http://cfppa.le-robillard.fr.  I was in contact with them previously and they were helpful and could no doubt point you toward available books.  According to the Robillard web site, the Association de Rechere Appliquee a la transformation cidricoles (ARAC) has published a lot of research which is available from the Chambre Regionale d'Agriculture de Normandie, although I haven't tried to access it myself.    

[Bartek Knapek]

Thanks,

 

  I have read the books you mentioned, and more :). However I think they are all biased towards english apple varieties and english/north american cidermaking. The french apples are rarely mentioned, and french cidermaking is referred to mostly when keeving is brought up. I believe there is much more to it. The french cidermaking has developed independently, and the selection of french cider apple viarieties is vast. I am curious to learn more - so I am looking for everything: ranging from general overviews to the very details. (I have recently ordered a number of french apple varietes - I need to understand how to handle them when they start to bare fruit in some 5 years ;-) )

 

//Bartek

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[Claude Jolicoeur]

I forgot to mention, there is also the very recently published book (about a month ago) by my friend Mark Gleonec:

"Pommes et cidre de Cornouaille", Edition Locus Solus.

As the title suggests, essentially focused on cidre de Bretagne, and more on the apple varieties than on cider making.

Among other things, Mark takes care of a conservation orchard near Fouesnant, where they keep a great number of local cider apple varieties.

[Andrew Lea]

I’m not quite sure what it is you think you are missing. Yes there are very many French cider varieties but there are just as many English ones and they all fall into the same 4 categories of sharp, sweet, bittersharp and bittersweet (though the French admit 2 extra classes of “amère” and “acidulée” - the latter being not quite as sharp as “aigre”). This is covered in Claude’s French book where he also describes about 40 French cider varieties in detail. As Claude suggests, you should take a look at it because it has been partly rewritten for a Francophone audience. 

 In general in the UK and France, people do not select specific apple varieties for single variety use but only for blending and from within those classes. This is well exemplified on the third page “Choix des Pommes” of this French leaflet from the 1970’s which is on my website http://www.cider.org.uk/comment_faire_du_bon_cidre.pdf. The rationale for using apples from each class is given. (This leaflet is essentially a precursor to the Bauduin book which is much expanded and modernised).

As far as I know, keeving  (défécation et soutirage) was the normal way of making cider in France for the whole of the 20th century. If you can find copies of Warcollier’s books “Le Pommier a Cidre” and “Cidrerie” which were both published in the 1920’s, you will see this.  At the very end of the 20th century the use of exogenous PME enzymes became possible and also the use of various artificial flotation methods (eg with nitrogen gas) to raise the “chapeau brun”.  However, the removal of nutrients to achieve a slow fermenting naturally sweet cider is pretty much the French way, irrespective of how that is achieved. Only very recently have English style backsweetened ciders been made in France, I think.

If you have not already found it, there are a number of articles about current French cider growing and making here http://www.ifpc.eu/infos-techniques.html

You may also be interested in this article written by Ian Merwin, an American author, but comparing also Spanish and French cidermaking techniques https://www.researchgate.net/publication/263010717_Cider_Apples_and_Cider-Making_Techniques_in_Europe_and_North_America

Andrew

Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

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[Bartek Knapek]

Thank you so much for all the references!

 

  I do not know what I am looking for exactly, but I realized I know very little about french cider, comparing to english, which is broadly described in your books, or english books in general. In the past it was the other way around - in the 100-200 years old polish literature we have references to french apple varietes, like Medaille d’Or or Reine des Pommes - we seem to had absolutely no awareness of the english people making cider as well - France was "trendy" and only few knew English.

 

When I started to experiment with cider some years back, I had a naiive goal to make a french-like cider, or Normand-like cider in particular, as these I like the most. After many trial and error, I came to conclusion that this all about right apples, and probably the right way of handling them (e.g. long open macerations). So now I am getting some french apple trees:

• Jeanne Renard
  
• Kermerrien
  
• Médaille d’Or
• Reine des Pommes
• Bedan
  
• Binet Rouge
  
• Muscat de Dieppe
  
• Noel des Champs

still looking for a source of

• Marie Ménard
  
• Fréquin Rouge
• Douce Moën
  

and I started to research french cider in general.

 

Well, when will eventually get some fruit, I want to avoid attempting to make a Normand cider out of Breton varieties!
Whatever the difference is - this I would like to learn as well ;)

 

//Bartek

Dnia 21 sierpień 2019 o 13:54 Andrew Lea <ci...@cider.org.uk> napisał(a):

 

I’m not quite sure what it is you think you are missing. Yes there are very many French cider varieties but there are just as many English ones and they all fall into the same 4 categories of sharp, sweet, bittersharp and bittersweet (though the French admit 2 extra classes of “ amère” and “ acidulée” - the latter being not quite as sharp as “ aigre”). This is covered in Claude’s French book where he also describes about 40 French cider varieties in detail. As Claude suggests, you should take a look at it because it has been partly rewritten for a Francophone audience. 

 

 In general in the UK and France, people do not select specific apple varieties for single variety use but only for blending and from within those classes. This is well exemplified on the third page “Choix des Pommes” of this French leaflet from the 1970’s which is on my website  http://www.cider.org.uk/comment_faire_du_bon_cidre.pdf. The rationale for using apples from each class is given. (This leaflet is essentially a precursor to the Bauduin book which is much expanded and modernised).

 

As far as I know, keeving  ( défécation et soutirage) was the normal way of making cider in France for the whole of the 20th century. If you can find copies of Warcollier’s books “Le Pommier a Cidre” and “Cidrerie” which were both published in the 1920’s, you will see this.  At the very end of the 20th century the use of exogenous PME enzymes became possible and also the use of various artificial flotation methods (eg with nitrogen gas) to raise the “chapeau brun”.  However, the removal of nutrients to achieve a slow fermenting naturally sweet cider is pretty much the French way, irrespective of how that is achieved. Only very recently have English style backsweetened ciders been made in France, I think.

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cider-workshop/F6B143BB-AADF-4744-B76D-28C1CDD80CC6%40cider.org.uk.

 

[Andrew Lea]

You can find Warcollier’s combined volume “Pomologie et Cidrerie” online here https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k3410819p?rk=21459;2

It’s the 1909 edition. (I think there was a later edition in 1920?).

It will give you a good idea of how cider was being grown and made in France 110 years ago.  

Andrew

Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cider-workshop/1253812575.831732.1566406492696%40poczta.nazwa.pl.

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le mercredi 21 août 2019 12:55:12 UTC-4, Bartek Knapek a écrit :

Well, when will eventually get some fruit, I want to avoid attempting to make a Normand cider out of Breton varieties!

Pretty much the same process, just that the Breton apples are in general more bitter (and particularly in Cornouaille), while the Normand tends to have a bit more acidity.

Claude

[NICHOLAS BRADSTOCK]

V many thanks Andrew!

I recall original copies of Warcollier’s works in the lab. office at Taunton when I started in 1965 - but long lost now I’m sorry to say....

I must save this in pdf.

Nick

iPhone

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