Tropical Fruit Cider?

[Richard Hyde]

Hi All.......Has anyone heard of people in the tropics say making cider out of tropical fruits.  Pineapple, mango etc.  I guess a juicer would extract sugar laden juice.....bit of yeast and off we go.

My neighbor made blackberry cider last fall.  48 pounds of blackberries in the second batch.  He did a great job.  It was not as sweet as I expected but had smell and taste that really blew me away.  Enjoyed it thoroughly. 

Anyway got me thinking about other high sugar fruits to experiment with.

Sincerely.

RH.  Victoria, BC.

[Dick Dunn]

On Mon, Apr 07, 2014 at 08:34:14PM -0700, Richard Hyde wrote:
> Hi All.......Has anyone heard of people in the tropics say making cider out
> of tropical fruits. Pineapple, mango etc. I guess a juicer would extract
> sugar laden juice.....bit of yeast and off we go.

Not exactly in the tropics here! But a cidermaker on Colorado's western
slope is making tepache, as one of his off-to-the-side products. Tepache
is a fermented pineapple beverage, traditional to Mexico.

It's not a cider! We know that; he knows that. But it's very interesting
and refreshing. I don't know his extraction/fermentation techniques.

> My neighbor made blackberry cider last fall. 48 pounds of blackberries in

> the second batch...

48 lb in how much cider?!?

--
Dick Dunn rc...@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA

[Richard Hyde]

I¹ll ask him DickŠŠ..I figure about 25 litres. That¹s a LOT of
blackberries.

RH.

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[Ian Shields]

Surely this is like asking can you make cider out of grapes, cider I thought meant apples?

Ian

[Jez Howat]

Yes Ian, cider (or cyder... or hard cider) is made from apples, as wine is from grapes and perry is from pears.

What is being talked about is what I would refer to as fruit wine... Although there may be a local name.

I have long thought that cider had a real crisis in identity - anything that can't be neatly categorised wine or beer is dumped on cider. To say the word 'alcopop' is bad, but probably more accurate for much of what is names cider - especially in the UK. I know there are some in other parts of the world who have a different approach, but it still doesn't make it cider...

And whilst cider suffers from an identity crisis it seems it will pop up on here every now and again.

All the best

Jez

[NICHOLAS BRADSTOCK]

H Jez

Come on!, to say

'anything that can't be neatly categorised wine or beer is dumped on cider'

cannot be correct!

Nick

From: Jez Howat <jez....@btinternet.com>
To: "cider-w...@googlegroups.com" <cider-w...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, 8 April 2014, 8:50
Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Tropical Fruit Cider?

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[Jez Howat]

Hi Nick.

I am not facetious that much, so I thought it would pass:-)

Best

Jez

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[Ray Blockley]

I have to agree with Jez. As we've discussed umpteen times on here before, "cider" is an incredibly abused term. I'm still amazed that Trading Standards haven't waded in on some of these "ciders" that use the term "cider" on the label and get away with it by crossing HMRC's palm with silver and paying the extra "Made Wine" duty. That does not make it "cider". 

So whether it is factually correct or not, without insider knowledge the impression is that there are three (excluding spirit / liqueurs / fortified wine / etc) classes of alcoholic drinks: Beer, Wine - and "Cider". "Cider" is indeed dumped on with any amount of weird and wacky flavourings, colourings, etc. that don't fit wine or beer.

I've been biting my tongue ever since I saw this thread entitled "Tropical Fruit Cider" appear - if it had been titled "Tropical Fruit Wine" I wouldn't have had a problem with it. In my opinion such posts should go on a "Home Wine Makers" group, not in a cider workshop group. 

And I really hope no one pops up and starts on about "innovation" and "developing innovative apple-based beverages"...!

We need to perhaps look back at the home page for this group and it's reason for being - "innovative fruit wines" is not one of them IIRC. 

Just my two penn'orth but needed to get that off my chest.

Ray.   

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[Dibbs]

I wonder what winemakers think about "wine" made from fruit other than grapes.

[Ray Blockley]

Wine has always been made from a diverse selection of fruits. Particularly "Home Wine Making", "Country Wines", etc - and of course some of these will use 100% grape as I used to when I grew my own. 

Wine makers who are as passionate about "full grape" wine as some of those on this group are about cider being made from apples (and/or pears [perry]) <full stop> would probably have a lot of sympathy.

Ray 

On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 11:19 AM, Dibbs <i...@bjss.co.uk> wrote:

I wonder what winemakers think about "wine" made from fruit other than grapes.

--

[Cheshire Matt]

For a lot of fruit/country wines the fruit is often diluted with water/juice allowed to leach out.  For example, our damson and plum wine is like this - don't press the fruit and use 100% of the juice, just slash the fruit, pour boiling water on and add loads of sugar, as the fruit doesn't have enough in it for a 12% wine. etc etc.

[Richard Hyde]

Hi All........Sorry about the hornets nest here......

Even though I'm in Canada now I hail form Somerset a long time ago.  So should know better.

My thoughts were on the actual process of fermenting a "No Sugar Added" drink.  Taking the natural fruit juice and turning out a tasty 5 to 6 % drink.  As a summer alternative to the sugar laden wine coolers and alcho pop's available. 

Cider is apples, Perry is pears, so a new class is needed if I make these.  Fruzer?  lol.

I totally agree with the identity issue with "Cider".  Most here think of Strogbow or some local offerings from "Growers" and "Okanagan Cider".  They really do not represent what Cider really is.

I have tried A LOT of supposed ciders over the winter and in honesty can not stomach the mass produced stuff any more.  Our problem here on the west coast is access to proper apples.  There are some very good looking and smelling all juice ciders available here now but they really lack taste.  IMHO. 

That's why we are starting off our own cider business.  I'm leaning a lot and having a lot of fun.  Grafting our own trees too.  Proper trees.  Yarlington Mill, Dabinett, Chisel Jersey and Kingston Black to name some.  It will be quite a few years before we taste our own "Cider" but worth the wait for sure.

The North American palette is how ever seeking sweeter drinks.....Hence the thought of Fruzer....

Thanks for the input.

RH.

RH.  Victoria, BC.

[:) Bobster]

Richard, you might want to peruse all of the previous forums post for this kind of discussion (or for any). I'm recently new here too and it wasnt long ago when this type of discussion took place.
I would read all of the last 3 months posts (minimum) to get a really good idea of all of these topics.

;)

[Thomas Barnes]

On Monday, April 7, 2014 11:34:14 PM UTC-4, Richard Hyde wrote:

Hi All.......Has anyone heard of people in the tropics say making cider out of tropical fruits.  Pineapple, mango etc.  I guess a juicer would extract sugar laden juice.....bit of yeast and off we go.

Fruit wines and other fermented drinks are very common in the tropics. Just about every culture has some form of local "wine" or "beer". In more temperate parts of the world, there is a long tradition of making fruit wines, although "country wines" unfairly get a very bad rap. (But, turn them into brandy and suddenly the connoisseurs love them!)

I'd think that one problem with making wine using tropical fruit would be acidity, however. Fermented pineapple juice would probably be almost undrinkably sour, as would all but the mellowest mango juice. My experience (mostly with beer) is that the very sour fruits, such as citrus, are best added as flavoring (e.g., just using orange zest, not juice). If you must add juice, do so at serving time to make a cocktail or alcoholic punch.

While others have rightly weighed in about the abuse of the term "cider," I take the vaguely heretical view that an "honest cider" made from mostly/entirely apple juice which isn't imported as concentrate from the ends of the Earth, can be improved, or at least made more distinctive, by adding high quality fruit juice or syrup. Cherries and cane fruits seem to blend best. Cranberry can be pleasant if the basic apple juice is lacking in sufficient tannins but a little goes a long way. Blends of pear and cider apples can make otherwise insipid dessert pear juice into something you'd want to drink. I've also tasted an excellent commercial cider which had added mango juice. But, "your mileage may vary."

[Nick]

Richard said:

"Our problem here on the west coast is access to proper apples.  There are some very good looking and smelling all juice ciders available here now but they really lack taste."

I think that hits the nail on the head, and I think it explains the reason why so many cider makers in the PacNW are putting adjuncts and exotic flavors in the ciders.  The juice available in this region comes from commodity dessert apples, which doesn't make a very flavorful fermented product.  If these producers didn't add all sorts of cherry/cranberry/ginger/hibiscus/chai spice/salami flavors to their products, it would be very hard for them to differentiate their products from their competitors' equally bland offerings.  Can you imagine if every winemaker in the country was stuck with using juice from Concord table grapes, which they bought pre-pressed and pre-blended by the tanker-truck? 

On Tuesday, April 8, 2014 10:43:13 AM UTC-7, Richard Hyde wrote:

[Ray Blockley]

Whether the juice is from apples out of your backgarden, an orchard miles away, out of a can or some other form of concentrate, adding adjuncts means it is no longer "cider". It's an apple-based flavoured wine. 

I don't consider myself a purist on this, just someone who believes that the term "cider" as a definition, a concept and a drink needs protecting. A line drawn in the sand if you like. 

Everyone is free to do what they want, but posting on this group about ideas for apple-based flavoured wines and calling them "cider" will be met with at the least a raising of the eyebrows by many folks... There are many "home wine" and "wine maker" groups that will of course welcome and embrace such concepts. Horses for courses. 

Just to state I have no problem with "country wines", "hedgerow wines", etc. as many can be really excellent, especially good heavy reds made from Damson and Elderberry, or light delicate whites made from Elderflower and Hawthorn blossom.      

Just my two penn'orth.

Ray. 

[Andrew Lea]

On 09/04/2014 10:04, Ray Blockley wrote:
> Whether the juice is from apples out of your backgarden, an orchard
> miles away, out of a can or some other form of concentrate, adding
> adjuncts means it is no longer "cider". It's an apple-based flavoured wine.
>
> I don't consider myself a purist on this, just someone who believes that
> the term "cider" as a definition, a concept and a drink needs
> protecting. A line drawn in the sand if you like.

I'm with you Ray. 110%. Cider is all about "the best an apple can be"
(which is the strapline of the Possmann cider company in Frankfurt). End
of story.

It does not include recipe based formulations with other fruits and
other flavours. They may have their place somewhere but they are not
cider. People are welcome to make and drink them but they need to find
another name and not to hijack a term which has been associated with
apples in English (and French and Spanish) for the best part of a
millennium.

"Alcopop" is a good name I think. For let's be clear, that's what they
are and that's the market that they're aimed at. So that's what they
should be called.

Like you I don't understand why (in the UK) Trading Standards don't act
on nomenclature since these products clearly do not conform to the HMRC
definition of 'cider'.

Andrew

--
near Oxford, UK
Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

[Cheshire Matt]

Another 110%-er here. And while some may think I bang the drum too
loudly, I'm not going to stop.

"Cider is made from apples". Like the origins of the drink itself, this
is the simplicity of the definition. Yes, some add adjunts, flavours,
water and the like to "Cider" and assume that because the base drink was
Cider, the resulting drink is "cider".

And this is where the grey mists move in to cloud the issue.

Clearly there is some cut off - and that cut off will be different to
different people. I know some makers who will claim that 100% juice or
nothing else. Some happy with 95% juice. Others 85% (which I think is
a bit too low, but there you go.) HMRC happen to think it's 35% (or
thereabouts depending on SGs etc that are too complex and ruin a good
story :)

If you subscribe to the view "Cider is made from apples", then juice
content - the amount of apples in the cider - can be the the *only*
definifiont. At the moment, I think there is only one definition based
on juice content: the HMRC one.

Now, that clearly is too low for (hopefully all) artisan/craft makers.
But it has benefits that it allows the large industrial makers to make
cider and support the market which artisan makers hang onto the
coat-tails of. For the want of anything else, we use that definition -
at the moment. That definition also says "no added fruits" - so if we
adopt a definition, we have to adopt all of it.

However. There do seem to be signs that there is an understanding that
low juice content (or rather high juice content) can set ciders apart.
However 2: the consumer has not truly been aware of which one they're
drinking because the marketing bullshit that's been puffing up the lower
juice content ciders and making them "premium".

Therefore, I still firmly believe that the proportion or percentage of
apple juice content should be included on the label of every bottle that
claims to be "cider". OK, this will catch all from 35% to 100% and
those with fruit or not. But there *is* a difference between high/low
juice contents, even going so far as to put a cider into a particular
style as a result.

The result is that consumers become aware of what they're drinking and
there is a small chink in which we (artisan/craft/fulljuice makers) and
ratchet that 35% back up to a high percentage for "drinks made from apples".

Just my view on what I think is the simple high-level strategy that
needs to be pursued to reclaim the word "cider".

[Michael Cobb]

Andrew Lea in reply to Ray Blockley wrote:
>> Whether the juice is from apples out of your backgarden, an orchard
>> miles away, out of a can or some other form of concentrate, adding
>> adjuncts means it is no longer "cider". It's an apple-based flavoured
>> wine.
>>
>> I don't consider myself a purist on this, just someone who believes that
>> the term "cider" as a definition, a concept and a drink needs
>> protecting. A line drawn in the sand if you like.
>
> I'm with you Ray. 110%. Cider is all about "the best an apple can be"
> (which is the strapline of the Possmann cider company in Frankfurt). End
> of story.
>
> It does not include recipe based formulations with other fruits and
> other flavours. They may have their place somewhere but they are not
> cider. People are welcome to make and drink them but they need to find
> another name and not to hijack a term which has been associated with
> apples in English (and French and Spanish) for the best part of a
> millennium.
>

I think we need to be even more vigilant in reclaiming the word Perry
because the widesperead use of "Pear Cider" can only damage the case for
cider. HMRC allow 25% apple juice in Perry and 25% pear juice in Cider
but these do not make the resulting drinks Apple Perry or Pear Cider! If
we do not stop the use of "Pear Cider" it could make it very difficult to
stop the spread to "other fruit" fermentations being called cider.

Michael Cobb

[Andrew Lea]

On 09/04/2014 11:41, Michael Cobb wrote:

>
> I think we need to be even more vigilant in reclaiming the word Perry
> because the widesperead use of "Pear Cider" can only damage the case for
> cider. HMRC allow 25% apple juice in Perry and 25% pear juice in Cider
> but these do not make the resulting drinks Apple Perry or Pear Cider! If
> we do not stop the use of "Pear Cider" it could make it very difficult to
> stop the spread to "other fruit" fermentations being called cider.

I think the NACM has accepted the synonym "Pear Cider" for "Perry"
already. So that battle may be lost. But I don't know what the official
NACM line is on eg lemon, blackcurrant and cherry ciders.

Back in the 70's or 80's there was an almighty ding-dong when the first
cherry cider from Belgium appeared in the UK. The NACM soon drove it out
- and rightly. But I suspect they may have a different view now. And
presumably NACM views prevail with Trading Standards, since they are the
recognised trade body. Nick, what is current NACM thinking on this?

[Richard Hyde]

Oh I wish I could edit the title........To:  An alcholic beverage produced in the style of a drink made from Apples. or   Fruit based drink fermented to provide a refreshing low %age alternative to wine.....

I remember growing up in Somerset and being int he pub in summer and asking for a Cider and Black.  It was popular in the summer amongst the locals at the Queens Arms in Bleadon village.  Landlord would add a good dose of blackcurrant cordial to the pint.  Blackthorn back then.  Made by the Taunton Cider Co.  I guess it was us that started this horrible fruit mixing in our Apple Cider.

Wonder how much apple juice there was in Blackthorn back in the late 80's.  We get it here in Canada now and I cant even stand to drink it.  Merridale Traditional is my tipple now.  It looks and tastes pretty good.  But I do try every new Cider I can find.  Even the ones not made from 100% pressed apples.

I feel firmly put in my place over this post and will never again associate the word Cider with anything not made from anything but "Proper" apple juice.

RH.

[Andrew Lea]

On 09/04/2014 15:57, Richard Hyde wrote:

>
> I feel firmly put in my place over this post and will never again
> associate the word Cider with anything not made from anything but
> "Proper" apple juice.

Don't worry - it isn't personal ;-)

But for some of us in the UK the idea that 'cider' can be made,
advertised and sold like alcopops to incorporate fruits and flavours
other than apple is like a red rag to a bull. That change has happened
here very quickly and pretty unexpectedly over about the last 5 years,
and is a triumph of deliberate construction by some clever people who
spotted a gap in the market and led the way through. Then everyone else
piled in and followed. Obviously it is in many commercial interests that
the distinction between those products and true ciders (even diluted
ones) becomes as blurred as possible. You only have to look at the trade
press and the advertising to see that. Even some of our self-styled
'craft' cider makers are getting in on the act now with flavoured
offerings. And who can blame them, if that's where the money is?

That is what has hit us just when the craft cider revival was getting
under way, and it threatens to derail the whole project by re-defining
the meaning of the word 'cider' to embrace a virtually unlimited range
of alcoholic drinks which are only nominally apple based. The rot has
even set in at some of our cider competitions, which now offer classes
for these bastard creations.

That is why some of us get so very angry about it, because it seems to
be making the job of safeguarding true cider in the UK even more
difficult just when it seemed we might be making some headway.
Irrational maybe - I expect there was the same outcry when the word
'custard' stopped meaning eggs and milk and started to mean cornflour
and colouring! I personally believe the juggernaut is now unstoppable
and that the 'newspeak' will soon take over. I think in 10 years time
the idea that cider should be made from apples, sugar and water alone
will seem very quaint and old-fashioned, just as it is today if you take
the trouble to make custard from eggs and not from cornflour.

I rarely comment on 'political' issues around cidermaking, preferring to
stick to the technical, but on this one I will get off the fence,
because it annoys me so much.

[Philip]

I agree with Matt. Putting the amount of juice content on the label would stop much of the confusion and at the very least let everyone know what they were getting even if it was called 'cider'.

Sent from my iPad

[Andrew Lea]

On 09/04/2014 18:16, Philip wrote:
> I agree with Matt. Putting the amount of juice content on the label
> would stop much of the confusion and at the very least let everyone
> know what they were getting even if it was called 'cider'.

Yes but let's not confuse the two issues:

1. Making 'chaptalised' cider and declaring juice content.

2. Making 'ciders' with a nominal apple base but using other fruits and
flavours in the formulation yet still calling them 'cider' on the bottle
and in advertising (even if they pay 'made wine' duty, the punters will
not understand that).

The two issues are quite distinct.

Andrew

[Nick]

I re-read the thread this morning and realized my previous post appeared to be providing justifications and excuses for the practice of adding flavors to ciders, given the bland juice available here.  That wasn't my intent.  I think the industry's embrace of weird flavors is ultimately going to be detrimental, and I predict a day will come when the consumers realize that hip trendy cider is really just the equivalent of wine cooler.

My objection with adding flavors has nothing to do with protecting the sanctity of the traditional use of the term "cider."  In the U.S., cider doesn't have the same cultural significance it has in the U.K. and Europe.  The cultural heritage of cider isn't something that figures heavily into our collective national identity.  So most people here don't feel strictly bound by cider-making traditions. 

Instead, my objection to the current practice of making ciders out of industrial juice and then adding weird flavors is that it isn't honest to how cider is being portrayed and promoted to the consumers.  The consumers are being told that every cider made here is hand-crafted by artisans using locally grown heritage fruit, with just a dash of wild-foraged pixie dust.  I don't think most consumers realize this means tanker trucks of industrial Jonagold juice from the packing houses in Wenatchee and Yakima. 

[Dick Dunn]

OK, personally I'm down with cider being fermented apple juice full stop.
That's what I do. BUT I'm having trouble splitting some of the hairs.

Is cider which is fermented/aged in oak no longer cider? In some cases the
oak barrels are so old, they don't add much flavor. In other cases there's
a definite attempt to use new-enough oak to add flavor.

If you say OK to "cider aged on oak", you have to be careful or you open the
door to "cider aged on hops", etc.:-)

And how do people feel about phrasing? "Raspberry cider" grates, for all
the reasons given so far. But what do you say to "Cider with [added]
raspberries"? More hairs to split: What about cider used as an adjective
in describing a combination?

I was also thinking about the ex-Somerset comment on "cider and black"
(blackcurrant added to cider) and it didn't sound like a sin to me. It
started with proper cider, then combined with something else. So what?
Cider isn't a sacrament to be taken only in isolation. The point, in that
case, was that the "cider" part was true cider.

While I like my cider as cider, I have also enjoyed cider mixed with a few
other things (blackcurrant being one) now and then. I'm keeping straight
that the cider is real cider, mixed with something else, and not labeling
the whole result a "cider". If that's worthy of your scorn, then scorned I
shall be.

[Andrew Lea]

On 09/04/2014 18:47, Dick Dunn wrote:
> OK, personally I'm down with cider being fermented apple juice full stop.
> That's what I do. BUT I'm having trouble splitting some of the hairs.

A lot of this, and why it rattles Ray and myself, is very UK specific.
It doesn't have the same resonance in other jurisdictions, so I don't
think you need be worried about splitting the hairs. It's for us to fret
about, not you :-)

In essence, the perpetrators and purveyors of these flavoured ciders are
paying duty on them as 'made wines' but marketing them as 'ciders'. This
is at best anomalous and at worst is deceitful. It surreptitiously blurs
and broadens the UK definition of cider which has been accepted as for
the last 50 years AFAIK as "apples only" - OK with some sugar, some
water and some pear if you like - but fundamentally apples with no other
flavourings.

The problem for us is that it is rapidly changing the whole public
perception of cider, especially amongst young people. The target market
for these concoctions is "new drinkers", exactly the same people who
used to put a shot of blackcurrant syrup in their Blackthorn as earlier
described. But by offering them as pre-prepared products masquerading as
'cider', the whole definition of the word is being forcibly changed to
reflect the new norm. It is not 'cider and blackcurrant', two entities
where the boundaries are clear and which you choose to mix, it is just
'blackcurrant cider' with the boundaries deliberately blurred. We used
to call them 'alcopops', you called them 'coolers'. Now they are back
but calling themselves 'ciders'.

They squeeze out the small makers (in particular those under our 70 hL
limit who are duty exempt and so cannot make or sell these products even
if they wished to) but in a much more general and insidious way they are
changing people's expectations of what cider in the UK should be by
manipulating the very definition of the word. A whole generation is now
growing up believing that this stuff is 'cider'. They know no better.

Yes it's a marketing dream and a product developer's paradise, but in
the long term I think it does the cause of true apple based cider no
good at all.

[Richard Hyde]

This is a good discussion nowŠŠ

Here in Canada I often comment to people buying our local excuses of syrup
flavoured with crikey knows what ³Cider²ŠŠ.Have you ever tried the english
ones there on the cold shelf. No is normally the answer. Funny cos they
all think the ³Growers² or ³Okanagan² is too sweet. So they try a Foundry
or Blackthorn or Strongbow and like it. Tastes more like apples is the
comment I get if I see them again and follow up.

The next and more difficult step is getting them to try a ³Merridale²
Cider. Which is for the most part not bad and made from apples. They
have a very large orchard of proper cider apples. So are ahead of the game
there. For the consumer though a $10/$11 dollar litre bottle of true
Cider is a tough financial step. The 6 330ml cans of syrup are $12.

Merridale have a fruit flavoured offering and in their defence its called
Meri-Beri. Their ³House² is not good, IMHO, but is available on draft.
Their ³Scrumpy² is very nice, bitter and flat (almost) but is 11%. A very
small bottle, 250ml I think is $6.40!

This post has given a lot of insight into the battle faced in the UK and
the true identity of Cider. North America with a few notable exceptions
have lost the plot already. But there are a lot of small start up¹s now
both in Canada and the US and they are staying as close to the UK brew as
possible. They all say they are planting proper trees as they know this
is how they can make the real thing.

My start up will not really produce any sellable ³Cider² for several
years. But I¹m not in it for the big $¹s. Just a way of life to pay some
bills. IT was kind to me but it¹s time to get out the rat wheel and
actually live.

RH, Victoria BC.

[Dougal]

The other night I found a new product on the cider shelves: Pomme de Gris - a mix of (presumably) cider and pinot gris.  The producer, Giesens, is obviously keen to take on both cidermakers and winemakers!!!

[Richard Hyde]

I have seen “Hopped” Cider………and Honey Cider…..What the frick!  

All I know is I’ll be drinking Cider this evening.  NOT syrup stuff either.

RH.

[Dick Dunn]

On Wed, Apr 09, 2014 at 09:15:13PM +0000, Richard Hyde wrote:
> I have seen "Hopped" Cider.........and Honey Cider.....What the frick!

What's the honey cider? That is, apple and cider fermented together, or
honey added to finished cider? If they're fermented together, it's called
"cyser" (different name for different beverage) and it has an honorable
tradition.

"Hopped" ciders are becoming more common in the US. At this point, nobody
could honestly say whether they're a new style or a fad. My vote is for
long-lived fad. The benefit is that they might draw in more beer-drinkers,
who (in the US) are more open to learning about real cider. The risk is
that every craft cidermaker will feel compelled to offer a hopped cider.

I have to admit, I find the hopped ciders (ciders adulterated with hops?:-)
refreshing, yet I don't seek them out. And, facing them in judging a
competition, I think I can give them a fair shake...but mostly they seem to
be [Hops ... ... ... ... Cider], which is to say the marriage doesn't
happen.

[Trevor FitzJohn]

I hope " honey mead" has not replaced cyser as "pear cider" has replaced perry in modern parlance.

Trevor FitzJohn
Chairman : Pacific Radiology Ltd
99 Rintoul Street : Newtown : Wellington 6021
PO Box 7168 : Wellington 6242 : New Zealand
Cell + 64 21 483 959
Fax + 64 4 978 5571 (work)
Fax +64 4 385 8037 (home)
Email trevor....@prg.co.nz
Web www.pacificradiology.co.nz

[NICHOLAS BRADSTOCK]

Andrew

You ask 'what is the current NACM thinking on this'.

It is as it always has been since the time we felt it needed to be codified -  back in 2008 if I recall accurately.

Our Code of Practice requires any blending or addition to cider other than apple (or pear) to be declared as 'cider with X' or 'cider and X'.  For duty purposes, cider with X is clearly made wine and not cider.  Cider cannot be made from fruit other than apples (with some pear and v.v., as is well understood) but cider can be flavoured - as in the 'cider and black' of our misspent youth.

The X must also be described accurately under EU/UK Food Law to show whether it is fruit material or flavour(ing).

This was agreed some 6 years ago with LACOTS ( now LACORS, I believe) but as far as I am aware we have yet to see any cases brought by any TS dept.

I would add that NACM has no 'clout' with Trading Standards - which is anyway organised locally and not nationally.  The law is the law and TS depts. interpret and test it by bringing cases.

NACM would prefer the name perry to be used in preference to pear cider but the view is, and I fully agree it, that pear cider cannot be ruled out since no UK court would demand that.

Finally, the Belgian cider with cherry you mention.  Again if I recall properly this was more about excise classification than food law.  I believe the importer decided at that time that made wine duty was too high a price to pay.  NACM did not drive it out.

Best

Nick

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[Tim]

I find it strange that you can add pear juice to apple juice and still call it cider, surely it is no better than adding Mango or similar.

 

Tim in Dorset

 

 

From: cider-w...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cider-w...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of NICHOLAS BRADSTOCK
Sent: 10 April 2014 09:15
To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Re: Tropical Fruit Cider?

 

Andrew

[nfcider]

Trevor ,the trouble is in the UK most of the commercially sold meads have gone down the glucose wine route and just sweetened with honey for flavour,the old fashioned way of actually fermenting honey dissolved in water is old hat!, my late mother-in-law's method of using a whole egg in shell as the hydrometer (when it floated there was enough fermentable sugar),this was the old country way produced a quite dry mead with different flavours depending on the honey used,being in the New Forest and keeping bees she primarily used the cappings and heather honey left from pressing out the combs so it had quite a strong flavour,clover and meadow honey was more floral,early season honey from holly had a distinctive bitterness to it ,definitely not the supersweet commercial gloup sold now.
Barry

[Andrew Lea]

On 10/04/2014 09:14, NICHOLAS BRADSTOCK wrote:

>
> Our Code of Practice requires any blending or addition to cider other
> than apple (or pear) to be declared as 'cider with X' or 'cider and X'.
>

So, to put you on the spot, when an NACM member sells a 'cider' with the
front label clearly saying 'cider' without qualification, but it's
actually citrus flavoured and includes a picture of a lemon, this would
be in breach of the COP? Am I right?

>
> This was agreed some 6 years ago with LACOTS ( now LACORS, I believe)
> but as far as I am aware we have yet to see any cases brought by any TS
> dept.
> I would add that NACM has no 'clout' with Trading Standards - which is
> anyway organised locally and not nationally. The law is the law and TS
> depts. interpret and test it by bringing cases.

But who would initiate that? Hasn't NACM 'triggered' such prosecutions
in the past by having a quiet word with the right people? That's the way
we do things isn't it? And the COP is taken to be a de facto statement
of what cider is, because LACORS defer to recognised trade bodies for
their definitions. It seems to me that a test case here is long overdue.
Otherwise it begins to make the COP look very silly because the way I
see it it's being breached every day. Isn't it? And if it's a COP
matter, can't the NACM internally police its own members?

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le jeudi 10 avril 2014 04:27:59 UTC-4, Tim in Dorset a écrit :

I find it strange that you can add pear juice to apple juice and still call it cider, surely it is no better than adding Mango or similar.

I guess this is just tradition... Most traditional orchards had some pear trees here and there in the orchard, and the pears were simply put in there with the apples. I doubt you'd find a mango tree growing in a cider orchard....

The use of pears in cider is still quite important in France. Most calvados also include some pears.
Claude

[Andrew Lea]

On 10/04/2014 13:42, Claude Jolicoeur wrote:

>
> The use of pears in cider is still quite important in France. Most
> calvados also include some pears.

I think it would have been very natural to do this in the UK West
Midlands (Three Counties) where perry pear trees and cider trees grow
next to each other. Doubtless that's why it became part of our
'permitted practice' in cidermaking (and the reverse in perry making).

Interestingly the juice of high tannin perry pears (Scheidmost) was also
used in parts of Central Europe notably Switzerland to provide some
tannin to dessert apple ciders and to help clarify them. I have no idea
if this is still done.

[Richard Hyde]

Crispin - Honey Crisp.

See image of a screenshot from my Mac. Gives info too.

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Andrew Lea wrote :

Interestingly the juice of high tannin perry pears (Scheidmost) was also
used in parts of Central Europe notably Switzerland to provide some
tannin to dessert apple ciders and to help clarify them. I have no idea
if this is still done.

Yes, it seems this is still the case - At least according to a swiss cider maker I have been in contact with.
Also in Austria, perry pears are grown and used with apples for cider as well as by themself for perry.
Claude

[Miguel Pereda]

Asturian Cider Spanish style = 100% fermented apple juice
It´s the law.

[Jeremy]

I ve never seen a perry pear tree in a Somerset orchard and I ve been in a lot of orchards

[Rupert Best]

Think Babycham.

Rupert Best

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeremy" <blackd...@gmail.com>
To: <cider-w...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2014 9:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Re: Tropical Fruit Cider?

>I ve never seen a perry pear tree in a Somerset orchard and I ve been in a
>lot of orchards
>

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[Alan Stone]

I know of a number of Perry Pear orchards in Somerset - some of great age

Sent from my iPhone

> On 10 Apr 2014, at 21:32, Jeremy <blackd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I ve never seen a perry pear tree in a Somerset orchard and I ve been in a lot of orchards
>

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[Chris Schmidt]

Being a "new kid on the block' from the craft cider aspect, I just wanted to add a comment, and a question, on the 'hopped cider'.

Of the several dozen people who have tried my first/latest batch of 'hopped alcoholic beverage', (which is 99% apple juice comprised of Spartan, Granny Smith and Golden Delicious apple juice, fermented with EC1118 yeast and about 75ppm of S02 added, then 3oz of full leaf hops added to my 20 litre batch of carbonated cider), every one of them have loved this 'alcoholic beverage' abomination I've created. Without a doubt it will be be my best selling cider/abomination. 

So is cider only cider if it's made from bittersweet apples? If it's made from dessert-style apples, and nothing else added, then why is it so horrible that my cider has hopped flavours added to it? It's still cider, isn't it? After all, I have more apple juice in this cider/abomination than other 'real ciders' that have only 85%, or whatever level, juice in them. And as hops only add a flavour through infusion, and don't really add any liquid content to the cider, then doesn't that still mean I have a cider as it's still 99% apple juice? Sure I'm covering up for a bit of blandness from the apples available, but who cares?! It's still 99% apple juice! By the way, I say 99% because I agree with whomever stated earlier that its impossible to have 100% cider...one drop of wash water in your juice and you're doomed.

Then as I continue to follow this amazingly helpful forum, I start to wonder if I should be calling my apple cider 'chemo-pop' because I'm adding S02 to my cider? Yes, I'm being a little rhetorical here, but I just wanted to make an observation as a loyal follower. If it's so bad to add kumquat juice to flavour a cider, why is it accepted practice to add a chemical such as S02 to cider? 

So my comment is: Yes, I think Dick is absolutely correct that hopped cider is going to be a long lived fad. I'm seeing beer drinkers switching to drinking my 99% apple juice cider/abomination-with-hops with a smile on their face. Isn't that good for the craft cider industry? After all, it's small batches of cider I'm making, with locally sourced apples, that I grind and press, then ferment and affectionately care for. Am I really that bad of a cider-maker because I don't use the 'cool kids' selection of apples? 

And my questions are: What is really so wrong with taking a "real cider' that is comprised of 99% apple juice, and adding a little something or other to tweak the flavour? I drink green tea, black tea, white tea, red wine, white wine, and a billion flavours of beer, but don't see a lot of conniption fits over that. Can't we all just accept that fermented apple juice is still cider, no matter what little nuances have been added to it? There are so many people switching to 'cider' these days, and 98% of them don't care if it's made with Dabinett or with Granny Smith, as long as it's a) apple juice that has been fermented and b) tastes good. By the way, I keep my cider at an SG of 1.004 because no one in my neck of the woods seems to like it any sweeter than that (though technically, 1.004 is a dry cider, right?)

My final wish, as a new craft cider maker, is that as an 'industry' we could accept that the definition of cider means that there is at least (for example) 85%of apple juice in it, and the remaining (for example) 15% can be whatever the market wants to drink. Whether it's  water (and hey- people in UK, your  water is probably worse for the cider than my hops...he says with a mischievous grin), or blackberry juice, or Maui-Wowie....

For your kind consideration, and with thanks for allowing me to participate in this discussion!!

[Ray Blockley]

I've always been a craft cidermaker and the bulk of my cider is made using none cider apples. I live in a part of the UK where Bramley's are the predominant apple (only 7 or 8 miles from Southwell, Notts the home of the Bramley), along with mixed culinary & dessert fruit. By careful blending, maturation, etc. I've never needed to add adjuncts to get folks to like my cider. Or to love it.

I appreciate that across the pond things are different. That's fine - horses for courses. To the UK technicalities & many folks opinions, cider with "stuff" isn't "cider". Doesn't mean it isn't tasty or that folks don't / can't appreciate it.

As to SO2 - Sulphur has many years (hundreds?) of history of being used in wine & cider making. Careful & minimal use of SO2 at the start of fermentation where necessary (not very often when using dessert / culinary fruit) is good way if getting a clean ferment & clean tasting cider. It's not for everyone though.

As has been stated a few times now, there are and are going to be differences of interpretation of what is " cider" - real or otherwise - on each side of the pond. Remember that in the UK we have a legal & technical definition of "cider" which may differ from that in the Americas?

Ray

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[Nat West]

The original poster asked about tropical fruit wines. I am making about 2500 gallons of Tepache (that which Dick Dunn mentions being made by, I believe, Blossomwood in Colorado) next week. This is our second year making it. It is a low-alcohol fruit wine traditionally consumed in Mexico. We don't call it anything other than "Tepache". The word "cider" only appears on the bottle once, and that is the federal requirement of the producer, "Made and Bottled by Reverend Nat's Hard Cider LLC in Portland Oregon".

Hops in cider have a history dating back to the 1800s. It wasn't until Northwest aroma hops were put into cider that (I feel) it really took off. English Noble hops are not as well suited to soaking in cider as newer west coast hops.

In America, 99% of the cider consumed by volume is un-flavored. So while there are many different products being made that call themselves cider, Americans believe cider is made with apples. If you ask the average man-on-the-street in America, "What is hard cider made from?" He will say, "Apple juice I suppose." And in case you didn't know, 99% of the cider consumed uses 0% single strength fresh apple juice.

So it sounds like UK is fighting a battle about flavored alco-pops being called cider, but we in America are fighting a battle about the use of apple juice versus sugar, water, HFCS, apple essence, caramel color, etc. I put some crazy ingredients in my "cider" but I also ferment 100% fresh single strength apple juice, never sugar and water. What's better, adding hops to 100% apple juice or making a glucose wine that's never seen a whole apple? I'm not trying to justify my use of adulterants, I'm saying that we have bigger battles to fight in America.

[Trevor FitzJohn]

Browsing the Hartlib papers ( free on line searches) I came across this. Written by Beale in March 1657 it looks like the early exponents had a broad church for the definition of cider. I guess that whilst apple ansd pear were the main sources of fruit anything suutable groweing in England that could be fermented wouls also qualify as "cider" too.

"And I doubt not but plums may make Cider, as good, & more pleasant than cherryes. And of those our hedges yeeld such plenty, That our Swine refuse them I knowe I could have made many hogsheads of their cider some yeares if I had knowne, That they would yield cider, but I doe doubt it, will bee roapy."

[Jez Howat]

Trevor,

 

Could you reference that extract please (page/chapter etc.). As with everything its all about the context… and I would like to check.

 

Jez

 

From: cider-w...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cider-w...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Trevor FitzJohn
Sent: 23 April 2014 23:17
To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Re: Tropical Fruit Cider?

 

Browsing the Hartlib papers ( free on line searches) I came across this. Written by Beale in March 1657 it looks like the early exponents had a broad church for the definition of cider. I guess that whilst apple ansd pear were the main sources of fruit anything suutable groweing in England that could be fermented wouls also qualify as "cider" too.

[Alan Stone]

There are plenty of references to using fruit, hops and spices in cider / my historian son Dr Richard Stone is looking at trying to get some funding to do some research to pull them all together

Sent from my iPhone

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[Alan Stone]

Hi

There are plenty of 17th and 18th century references to using fruit, hops and spices in cider. My historian son is looking at finding some funding to do the research to pull them all together

Sent from my iPhone

On 24 Apr 2014, at 12:35, "Jez Howat" <jez....@btinternet.com> wrote:

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[nfcider]

Plums around the Pershore and Evesham area were always fermented as a drink,the old boys who drunk it regularly had a twitch,hence the local name for it was called "plum jerkum".
Barry.

[Tim]

And my wife used to pick plums around Pershore and Evesham when she was a little bit younger, she says it was never for eating purposes.

Tim

-----Original Message-----
From: cider-w...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cider-w...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of nfcider
Sent: 24 April 2014 15:36
To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Re: Tropical Fruit Cider?

[Trevor FitzJohn]

Hi Jez. Try

http://www.hrionline.ac.uk/hartlib/context and search by cider. Cheers Trevor

Sent from my iPhone

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[Dibbs]

I made a small batch of "plum jerkum" last year.  I'd assumed the name referred to what it does to your bowels. :)

Seriously though, I tried to treat them exactly like I would apples but manually removed the stones first.  Plum pomace seemed to be impossible to press so I just fermented the pulp then strained a couple of weeks later.

[nfcider]

The old boys who gave me some bottles,told me the way it was usually was dry fill a wide necked blue barrel with picked plums and top up with water and leave it initially loose lidded and after a few days use a clean piece of wood like a pick axe handle to mash the fruit a bit ,the yeast bloom on the fruit did the fermentation,this must be similar to fermenting for the Eastern European Plum Brandy etc.

[Julian Back]

I've wondered about plum jerkum before.  What is it like?  Is it worth making if you have a surplus of plums?

Was it made from a particular variety of plums or just whatever was available?

Julian

On 25 April 2014 15:37, nfcider <barr...@newforestcider.co.uk> wrote:

The old boys who gave me some bottles,told me the way it was usually was dry fill a wide necked blue barrel with picked plums and top up with water and leave it initially loose lidded and after a few days use a clean piece of wood like a pick axe handle to mash the fruit a bit ,the yeast bloom on the fruit did the fermentation,this must be similar to fermenting for the Eastern European Plum Brandy etc.

[Charlotte Traynor]

We made a batch of jerkum a few years back, much in the same way Barry described.  Just used whatever plums we had (mix of Victoria, Damson, Greengage and many unidentified!).  Flavour after initial fermentation on the pulp and stones was great; fruity, light bodied, acidic and needless to say very dry - a lot like our usual style of Eastern Counties Cider, but plummy!  Unfortunately at this point apple season kicked in and we lacked the time and space to finish it off well, but I'd definitely try it again if we had a surplus!

Charlotte

[Dibbs]

Mine's basically undrinkable.  Too acidic.  I added some malolactic culture just the other day but I doubt it will ever be any good.

[nfcider]

I think every variety would go in providing there weren't any fungal rots etc on them,I'm surprised with the advent of the new "boutique distilleries"starting up there is not more made of them in adding Artisan value to them rather than letting them rot,following on from the earlier thread about waste lees we've had 2500 litres turned into eau-de-vie,has turned out like German schnapps ,but the £1800 duty bill come as a bit of a shock.
Barry.

[Thomas Barnes]

On Wednesday, April 23, 2014 6:16:46 PM UTC-4, Trevor FitzJohn wrote:

Browsing the Hartlib papers ( free on line searches) I came across this. Written by Beale in March 1657 it looks like the early exponents had a broad church for the definition of cider. I guess that whilst apple ansd pear were the main sources of fruit anything suutable groweing in England that could be fermented wouls also qualify as "cider" too.

"And I doubt not but plums may make Cider, as good, & more pleasant than cherryes. And of those our hedges yeeld such plenty, That our Swine refuse them I knowe I could have made many hogsheads of their cider some yeares if I had knowne, That they would yield cider, but I doe doubt it, will bee roapy."

Interesting information, but definitions change.

But, your post reminded me of something that I believe that is an important but unaddressed aspect of cider - it should be "sessionable". That is, it should typically have an ABV of about 4-7% so you can have an entire pint or two without getting legless drunk. While I recognize and appreciate strong ciders like Cidre de Glace, New England Cider or fortified Apple Wine, one of the reasons that I love cider is because it isn't usually that strong, which I think means that it pairs better with most food than a 10-13% ABV wine.

[Andrew Lea]

On 23/04/2014 23:16, Trevor FitzJohn wrote:
> Browsing the Hartlib papers ( free on line searches) I came across this.
> Written by Beale in March 1657 it looks like the early exponents had a
> broad church for the definition of cider. I guess that whilst apple ansd
> pear were the main sources of fruit anything suutable groweing in
> England that could be fermented wouls also qualify as "cider" too.

I'll grant that Beale may have been a bit loose with terminology in
writing to Hartlib, but when he puts it all down for Evelyn ('Aphorisms'
in Pomona 1664) he makes a clear distinction between 'cider' from
apples, 'perry' from pears, and 'cherry wine', 'plum wine' etc. (Beale
paragraph 54 on page 29 of Pomona
https://archive.org/details/sylvaordiscourse00eveluoft)

And Worlidge in Vinetum Brittanicum (1691) - sadly not online - is quite
clear on the distinction between cider and perry made from apples or
pears, and those ciders (which he calls 'mixtures') which have been
deliberately flavoured either for medicinal purposes or to conceal
production faults, and those 'wines' made from other fruits such as
grapes, gooseberries, cherry, plum, redcurrant etc, . He has separate
and clearly defined chapters for all these entities. He does not lump
them all together as cider. He says "Besides cider, there are many other
curious drinks that may be prepared out of British fruits". The book
itself is sub-titled "A Treatise of Cider and Other Wines and Drinks
extracted from fruits growing in this Kingdom". No confusion there.

The last word goes to Worlidge ...."There is not any liquor that hath
less need of mixtures than cider, being of itself so excellent that any
addition whatsoever maketh it less pleasant"

[Trevor FitzJohn]

Certainly not tropical but I came across this of interest in the Philospphical Transactions of the Royal Society.. Vol 2 page 177  " the Liquor....is a composition of the juices of good cyder apples and mulberries, producing  the best taster and most curiously coloured liquor." Will try it when our Mulberry tree starts fruiting.

[Dick Dunn]

It may be of interest that a mead mead with mulberries (i.e., a melomel) has
the specific name "morat". But I doubt there's a specific name for a cider
made with mulberries. You could probably invent a clever one.

On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 09:00:52PM -0700, Trevor FitzJohn wrote:
> Certainly not tropical but I came across this of interest in the
> Philospphical Transactions of the Royal Society.. Vol 2 page 177 " the
> Liquor....is a composition of the juices of good cyder apples and
> mulberries, producing the best taster and most curiously coloured liquor."
> Will try it when our Mulberry tree starts fruiting.

[Dougal]

Momouse?

[Damien Clark]

Mûrder ?

[Richard Hyde]

As a follow up to my badly worded original post........Bumped into a friend yesterday.....She has fought two battle with skin cancer now, 27 Chemo sessions, radiation you name it.......

She has just moved from BC to Panama and is teamed up with a Bio-Chemist in the production of "Worm" and "Marijuana" brownies for cancer treatment patients.  90% protein from the worms and MJ to relieve the suffering.

Guess this could be an alternative to my Tropical Fruit Booze question.

Thought I would share.

RH.