Apple Trees in Sandy Soil

[Mike Rose]

Hey everyone,

My wife and I are looking for a house in northern Michigan. We've been looking for place with some acreage so I can plant a small (20-40 tree) orchard. We found a place we're interested in. There is a large field on the property that is already clears. I did the USDA Soil Survey for that area and it came back as a sandy soil. It seems there are a lot of pine and hardwood trees in the surrounding forests, but I wanted to check what people thought on sandy soils for apple trees.

It seems the biggest issue is drought and keeping them property watered — especially early on.

I'm looking to grow true cider varieties. I'm assuming the sand is low nutrient which could be beneficial too?

Here is the soil classification from the soil survey. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks,

Mike

//

15B Kalkaska sand 0 to 6 percent slopes

This nearly level and undulating somewhat excessively drained soil is on plains and knolls. Individual areas are irregular in shape and range from about 10 to 1,000 acres. Typically the surface layer is black sand about 2 inches thick The subsurface layer is brown sand about 10 inches thick The subsoil is multicolored very friable sand about 36 inches thick. The underlying material to a depth of about 60 inches is light yellowish brown very friable sand in places the dark reddish brown layer in the upper part of the subsoil is very thin or absent.

Permeability is rapid available water capacity is low and surface runoff is slow.

Most areas of this soil are woodland. Only a few areas are farmed. A few areas are in pasture.

This soil is well suited to woodland (fig 8). Common native trees are sugar maple, American beech, northern red oak, eastern white pine and red pine. Seedling mortality caused by droughtiness and equipment limitations are the main management concerns. Planting containerized seedlings in well prepared sites can reduce seedling mortality. The sandy surface can limit trafficability of equipment during dry periods.

This soil is poorly suited to crops. Conserving soil moisture increasing the content of organic matter and controlling soil blowing are the main management concerns. Corn, potatoes and small grains can be grown (fig 9). Crops generally do well only in years of above normal rainfall. Organic matter can be increased in the soil by the addition of barnyard manure or green manure crops. Conservation tillage that does not invert the soil and leaves all or part of the crop residue on the surface helps conserve soil moisture and control soil blowing.

...

[Mike Rose]

Planned Orchard Site

[Dougal]

Not somewhere I'd choose to plant trees, Mike.  As well as nutrition and water issues, they would need to be well supported as I suspect they would be poorly anchored.

[Mike Rose]

Thanks for the feedback. I should add that I'm in no way tied to this place. There are many places for sale in northern Michigan so I'm being pretty picky. :)

Not somewhere I'd choose to plant trees, Mike.  As well as nutrition and water issues, they would need to be well supported as I suspect they would be poorly anchored.

I'm attaching two more photos that show it in the early summer. It looks much more green that the aerial photo lets on.

Thanks again,

Mike

  

[Ann Marie Thornton]

Hi Mike,

My husband and I have an heirloom and cider apple orchard in the Sandhills of North Carolina that we planted seven years ago. As you might imagine, have very sandy soil. We use emitters (one per tree) for irrigation, which works well. Do you a little research (contact your ag guys, too) for advice on what rootstocks to use. We started on MM111 as a good choice for our soil, but the trees have been maturing slowly so we shifted to Geneva rootstocks which are more precocious.

Ann Marie

James Creek Ciderhouse

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[Jeff Hanson]

Hello Mike, I am I the process of developing an orchard in soil with a high sand content (frack sand). The property is located in west central Wisconsin. For rootstock, I picked B.118 for drought tolerance and winter hardiness. I live 2 hours away so irrigation wasn't possible. I have about 130 trees in ground, with a similar amount to be added in the next two weeks years. I have been using Claude's book for guidance on variety selection.
Good luck with your property search!
Jeff

[Mike Rose]

What does the soil survey say for that area?

[Jeff Hanson]

Never have checked the survey. To aid with water retention I have added a 6x6 Lumite mat around each tree. In addition, I added a bag of top soil and manure to each planting. One more thing, for deer protection, I use 5ft. concrete wire to create a 5 ft perimeter. I hope this helps!

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[Dougal]

There are ways of coping with all sorts of conditions but, if you are not tied to a bit of land, why make it hard (and costly) for yourself?  If the orchard is a primary driver for where you want to live, why not seek land that will grow apples pretty much by itself?

Looking to places like Somerset, Martock / Kingston Episcopi produced many fine cider varieties and fabulous cider on sandy soil but it is not as lean as what you are discussing.  By contrast, many of the equally famous areas such as Vale of Taunton Deane and pockets of land around Glastonbury also produce fabulous ciders but the soil is much richer.

[Mike Rose]

There are ways of coping with all sorts of conditions but, if you are not tied to a bit of land, why make it hard (and costly) for yourself? If the orchard is a primary driver for where you want to live, why not seek land that will grow apples pretty much by itself?

The orchard is more of a strongly preferred bonus. :)

The primary driver is not being too far away from the hospital where my wife is going to work. :)

It's a long story, but we found out we're having our first child about 3 months ago. We're moving from Chicago to somewhere in northern Michigan to be closer to my parents. I currently maintain about ~60 wild trees on my family's farm land. By moving, that commute is going to change from 8 hours to 3 hours. So I don't need to plant an orchard. But I like the idea of having one on my property, especially apples I selected rather than wild. I could actually increase my yield of wild juice if I had lower acid apples to blend with.

If the orchard was the primary driver I would have already bought a small farmhouse that had over 300 mature wild apple trees growing on it's apparently ideal sandy loam soil.

The problem is my wife needs to commute to work. Also, she needs to take call once a week — so we can't be more than ~20 minutes away — and the closer the better. Less stress for her is less stress for me. I'm going to work remotely from home with my current job — so I have to say in the matter. If it's slightly more work to maintain trees in sandy soil, it might be better than a wife complaining about her commute every time she walks in the door OR someone dying — haha.

The bummer is that it seems the whole area is a glacial wash out and is all very sandy. You have to get 15-30 minutes outside of town before you get to really nice sandy loam farmland. I've found reasonably priced 20–40 acre lots with similar soil. However, I'm not sure it's worth trying to maintain an orchard 30 minutes away when I can just continue what I'm doing with my updated 3 hour commute.

Maybe it doesn't matter and I'm being naive with how much free time I think I'll still have? :)

The main point is that it does seem possible. I also didn't point out that the field also has a mucky pond to the NW. There is enough water in it to pump for irrigation and I'm assuming the muck could be dried and used for topsoil?

[Dougal]

That puts it in perspective, Mike!  So you are stuck with a smaller area of selection.

 

In that case, I'd hire some equipment once I'd mapped out my orchard, trench the rows, dump some organic matter into the trenches and rotary hoe it in.  Maybe even do that in summer to let everything settle in.  Set up your irrigation then, too.  Then in Autumn, plant your trees and you are good to go.  Consider mulch, more to provide continuing organic matter than to retain moisture (which will probably leach in your sandy soil).  I suspect you will need good support for your trees, especially if they are on dwarf stock.  Another thing I am playing with is using standard rootstock like M793 and grafting on an interstem of M9 onto which the scion is grafted.  I hope to get a good rooting system with this whilst retaining the dwarfing characteristic.  Nothing to report on yet, sorry.  I would also consider a good fertiliser programme on your soil in the early years.

 

Congratulations on the upcoming expansion to the family!   Another generation to carry on the cider brand and fame!!!

 

 

[Cider Supply, LLC]

Hi Mike, i wouldn't worry all that much about your soil being to sandy. From the looks of things and if other trees you speak of grow near thats good. Worse case senario you just perodically fertlize. Most of the apples grown in the USA are grown in the Desert of Washington State. However i cannot stress enough to spend 50 bucks and send a soil sample to a local agricultural test lab for a full report on the high and low chems and minerals of your proposed location. The will also recommend an exact fertlizer blend. No guessing on your part. Some one time soil amendments can only be done before you plant. Did some soil studies and it is shocking as to how many orchards have ruined soil from people guessing.

Your rootstocks will enjoy aireateted lower nutrient soils if kept moist much more than extremely rich and heavy damp clay soils because of better cation exchange.

But take soil samples and send them in. You will be sooooo glad that you did.

Chris Rylands

[:) Bobster]

Mike, this is actually a really interesting question regarding sandy soils.

I was listening to a CBC radio clip on a Swedish gardener who's kind of revolutionized gardening abit.
He's replaced all his soil with sands and gravels and grow plants from all over the world that way.
Turns out that even during the very hot spells, moisture can always be found at 6" below the surface and beyond.
He also said that most plants dont need rich soils and its dry soil that will finish off a dry stressed plant because dry soil particles suck moisture out of the plant.
Plants and trees will adapt to the place you're looking at, and those apples will develop deeper roots as they search for moisture.

M111 would be a good rootstock: which I think is more drought tolerant.  info: http://appleman.ca/korchard/rootstok.htm

-Bob

[:) Bobster]

"I've found reasonably priced 20–40 acre lots with similar soil."

Just curious, Mike, where are we talking and roughly how much?

Im in BC where an acre in the Okanagan is I dunno, 150K, except ag land doesnt often come in 1 acre parcels...more like 10.

[Mike Rose]

A new twist! We decided against the house with the very sandy soil for a lot of reasons. However, we might have settled on an older farmhouse. The property seems to be a mix of well drained sandy loam that gets slightly more sandy near the back. Overall, it appears to be much less sandy than the property described above.

My preference would be to first plant trees in the area circled as it would eventually provide some privacy from the road. This is the area with some of the "better" loamy sand soil.

What I'm wondering about now is the water table of this area. There is a creek and two lakes very close to the property. The dry areas seem to be somewhat rolling and high. Usually sudden steep slope before you get to the water. I'm including a Google Earth shot that shows the topography of the area a little better.

Would it generally be a bad idea to plant on these high areas this close to water? I know the creek can flood in the spring, but with the lake right there I don't think it would overflow much.

I'm assuming I might have to go out there with a shovel this spring and see how wet the soil looks, but are there any general red flags in doing this?

[Mike Rose]

So two months later, we finally found a place. This place has good sandy loam soil (specifically Iosco sandy loam, 2 to 6 percent slopes), so I don't have to worry about the sand. Inspections will hopefully be happening next week, so I'll be sure to get a few soil samples from around the property. 

I do have a few new questions though...

Can anyone recommend a book or online articles on orchard planning? Bonus points if it's geared more towards aesthetics (landscaping) than a commercial focus.

I'm also torn between M111 and Antonovka for the rootstock — experiences with either would be helpful to hear. 

Last, in the area I plan on planting the orchard there will be a lot of south and west exposure (north and east have more tree coverage). If I'm in a cold climate (Northern Michigan), how much do I need to worry about winter damage and early blossoming in the spring? I've heard several things on which exposure is "best".

Thanks!

Mike

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le mercredi 27 avril 2016 08:49:09 UTC-4, Mike Rose a écrit :

Can anyone recommend a book or online articles on orchard planning? Bonus points if it's geared more towards aesthetics (landscaping) than a commercial focus.

Books by Michael Phillips, The Apple Grower and The Holistic Orchard are good references for organic apple orcharding.
 

I'm also torn between M111 and Antonovka for the rootstock — experiences with either would be helpful to hear. 

Here on my property in Quebec, Antonovka has done better than MM-111. However, there are so many factors in play and in some other location, this might not hold true. You may also consider B-118, which is about same size as MM-111 and generally considered more hardy.

Claude

[Ann Marie Thornton]

Congrats, Mike! We have sandy loam and started out planting on MM111, but have switched to Geneva rootstocks. The trees on MM111 grow slowly and are slower to bear. I'm not familiar with Antonovka. Good luck!! 

Ann Marie Thornton

James Creek Orchards

Cameron, North Carolina

From: <cider-w...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Mike Rose <rose...@gmail.com>
Reply-To: <cider-w...@googlegroups.com>
Date: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 8:49 AM
To: Cider Workshop <cider-w...@googlegroups.com>

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[Mike Rose]

 

Congrats, Mike! We have sandy loam and started out planting on MM111, but have switched to Geneva rootstocks. The trees on MM111 grow slowly and are slower to bear. I'm not familiar with Antonovka. Good luck!!

Thanks Ann! Was the faster grow time / less time to fruit the only reason you made the switch?  

Here on my property in Quebec, Antonovka has done better than MM-111. However, there are so many factors in play and in some other location, this might not hold true. You may also consider B-118, which is about same size as MM-111 and generally considered more hardy.

Thanks for the info Claude! It sounds like B-118 might be somewhere in the middle of MM-111 and Antonovka. Maybe ideal for what I'm looking for. What is the usual time to fruit compared to MM-111 and Antonovka? Also, what kind of sun do you get on your orchard?

[Mike Rose]

Just found this online. I'm not sure what they mean by "replant". Is it possible this rootstock would do too well in sandy loam soil?

Budagovsky 118 (B.118) is a more vigorous clone out of the Minsk breeding program. It is more vigorous than the other rootstocks in the series but still imparts the high degree of winter-hardiness. It propagates easily in stool beds and does not sucker. It has moderate resistance to fire blight but is susceptible to phytophthora. Because of the vigor of the rootstock it is only recommended for spur strains of apple or in weak soil or replant situations.

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le mercredi 27 avril 2016 10:49:01 UTC-4, Mike Rose a écrit :

Just found this online. I'm not sure what they mean by "replant". Is it possible this rootstock would do too well in sandy loam soil?

When planting an orchard in a location where an older orchard was taken out, the new trees normally are less vigorous - this is sometimes called "the replant desease". Hence the recommendation to use more vigorous stock in this situation.

Budagovsky 118 (B.118) is a more vigorous clone out of the Minsk breeding program. It is more vigorous than the other rootstocks in the series but still imparts the high degree of winter-hardiness. It propagates easily in stool beds and does not sucker. It has moderate resistance to fire blight but is susceptible to phytophthora. Because of the vigor of the rootstock it is only recommended for spur strains of apple or in weak soil or replant situations.

Note these recommendations are probably for higher density market apple production. In cider orchards, bigger rootstocks are usually used for a semi-intensive layout of self-standing trees.

I would recommend that you go and talk with apple growers in your region and ask what sort of rootstock they use and would suggest for the area.


And in a previous post:

What is the usual time to fruit compared to MM-111 and Antonovka? Also, what kind of sun do you get on your orchard?

I don't have experience with B-118 - I only read good things about it... As of the sun, I don't know what to answer... First thing that comes to my mind is the obvious one - the same sun that yours...
Claude

[Mark]

"Replant" means planting into a site that was previously planted to apples. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 27, 2016, at 10:49 AM, Mike Rose <rose...@gmail.com> wrote:

Just found this online. I'm not sure what they mean by "replant". Is it possible this rootstock would do too well in sandy loam soil?

Budagovsky 118 (B.118) is a more vigorous clone out of the Minsk breeding program. It is more vigorous than the other rootstocks in the series but still imparts the high degree of winter-hardiness. It propagates easily in stool beds and does not sucker. It has moderate resistance to fire blight but is susceptible to phytophthora. Because of the vigor of the rootstock it is only recommended for spur strains of apple or in weak soil or replant situations.

--

[Mike Rose]

I don't have experience with B-118 - I only read good things about it... As of the sun, I don't know what to answer... First thing that comes to my mind is the obvious one - the same sun that yours...
Claude

Haha. I guess I meant do you have a strong south or west facing slope? I've read that too much sun in the winter and spring can be a bad thing. Mostly related to the tree coming out of dormancy too early in cold climates. 

I plan on planting in this area (attached). As you can see its very open on the south and west so I'm assuming the trees will get a lot of sun. I'm in a pretty cold client (USDA Zone 5a, -20°F to -15°F) so I want to avoid damaging the trees in the winter or having them bud too early in the spring.

[Ann Marie Thornton]

>Thanks Ann! Was the faster grow time / less time to fruit the only reason you made the switch?  

Mike, the precociousness or lack thereof was the primary reason we switched, but another big motivator is that the Geneva rootstocks are more resistant to fireblight which has been a major threat in our orchards.

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le mercredi 27 avril 2016 13:25:09 UTC-4, Mike Rose a écrit :

Haha. I guess I meant do you have a strong south or west facing slope? I've read that too much sun in the winter and spring can be a bad thing. Mostly related to the tree coming out of dormancy too early in cold climates. 

These considerations are quite dependent on location and local climate I think. Difficult to generalize. Yes my orchard is on a slope facing south. But there is so much snow here that there is no question of the trees coming out of dormancy too early. Just to give you an idea, the orchard floor is still partially covered with snow and trees are still dormant here... In over 30 years, I've never seen a freeze during bloom, as blooming is delayed by the time required to melt the snow.
Claude

[e owen]

If possible orient the rows north-south to increase photosynthesis efficiency and  to deter southwest injury (bark popping off due to warmed bark going into frigid nights).

[Mike Rose]

The local conservation district sells EMLA-7 (MM-7?) rootstock. Does anyone have any experience with this?

[Dick Dunn]

On Sat, Apr 30, 2016 at 03:21:46PM -0700, Mike Rose wrote:
> The local conservation district sells EMLA-7 (MM-7?) rootstock. Does anyone
> have any experience with this?

You should find lots of people with experience with it in the US; it's
quite common. (No, it's not an "MM-". The original is just M-7; the
modern cleaned-up version EMLA-7 is East Malling/Long Ashton. No Merton
afaik.)

But are we digressing from the sandy soil topic? I think of EMLA-7 as
helpful in heavier soils such as I have here (Colorado front range). I
know it anchors fairly well against our high winds in this heavy soil,
but I don't have any idea what it would do in loose sandy soil.

EMLA-7 also has some moderate resistance to fireblight. It's semi-dwarf on
the generous side. Cold tolerance is good. It does tend to sucker; it'll
keep you busy in your springtime cleanup. But it's a workhorse.

--
Dick Dunn rc...@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA

[Wes Cherry]

M7 also has a reputation of making "leggy" trees. It also has a tap root which is good for anchorage and maybe to get to deeper water in drought. If your soil has a hard pan it can hit that and runt out. That said, my soil has a pretty hard hard pan and the M7 trees are doing well and have nearly filled out their 12' spacing in 5 years. They are taller than I would like them.


-'//es Cherry
Dragon's Head Cider
Vashon Island, Wa US
www.dragonsheadcider.com

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[Mike Rose]

But are we digressing from the sandy soil topic? 

Yes. I could create another topic, but didn't want to flood the board. 

I'm not working with sandy loam soil with a somewhat high water table.

Slope:

2 to 6 percent

Depth to restrictive feature:

More than 80 inches

Typical profile:

H1 - 0 to 8 inches: sandy loam

H2 - 8 to 34 inches: loamy sand

H3 - 34 to 44 inches: silty clay loam

H4 - 44 to 60 inches: silty clay loam

Depth to water table:

About 6 to 18 inches

This is from the soil survey website. When I did a quick check of the soil in this field I didn't noticed that high of a water table — the whole area is actually pretty dry for this time of year (snow just melted). It's at a higher elevation than the rest of the property (~1240ft compared to ~1210ft. I will have to dig some holes to be sure though before I commit to this field. I'm not planting until next spring, so I'll be able to check the water table throughout the year to confirm. I have a few other options if needed.

I'm assuming 6 inches to the water table would be too wet. But if it was on the higher end of 18-24" how would EMLA-7 fair? I'm not sure how deep apple trees try to root.