Re: [Cider Workshop] apple extract to flavour my cider when bottling?

[skidbro...@tiscali.co.uk]

Hello Tomas

What is your reasoning? Why do you think that flavouring an apple drink with apple flavouring is necessary?

Puzzled of Skidbrooke

Guy

----Original Message----
From: tomas....@gmail.com
Date: 24/11/2012 21:44
To: <cider-w...@googlegroups.com>
Subj: [Cider Workshop] apple extract to flavour my cider when bottling?

Hi,

I will be bottling my cider batch soon and rather than sweetening it/ flavouring it with non-fermenting sugar I was thinking of flavouring it with an apple extract.

Is there anybody out there that can recommend a tried and tested brand or advise ? Any help greatly appreciated

T.

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[Rick Wyatt]

Hi all,

I'm with you Guy but am I alone in thinking this practice is fairly
widespread and approved by CAMRA?

I for one have never been able to retain the fresh and sometimes
intense apple aroma that I pick up on with certain ciders. At first I
wondered if there was a magical yeast strain that didnt strip these
aromas away during fermentation but I'm now led to believe they may be
achieved using after market/post fermentation additions.

Fine for personal/family use but for entry into festivals and
competitions? Not so sure.

Cheers,

Rick.

On 25 Nov, 19:15, "skidbrookecy...@tiscali.co.uk"

<skidbrookecy...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
> Hello Tomas
> What is your reasoning? Why do you think that flavouring an apple drink with apple flavouring is necessary?
> Puzzled of Skidbrooke
> Guy
>
>
>
> ----Original Message----
> From: tomas.kear...@gmail.com
> Date: 24/11/2012 21:44
> To: <cider-w...@googlegroups.com>
>
> Subj: [Cider Workshop] apple extract to flavour my cider when bottling?
>
> Hi,
>
> I will be bottling my cider batch soon and rather than sweetening it/ flavouring it with non-fermenting sugar I was thinking of flavouring it with an apple extract.
> Is there anybody out there that can recommend a tried and tested brand or advise ? Any help greatly appreciated
>
> T.
>
> --
> Visit our website:http://www.ciderworkshop.com
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> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Cider Workshop" Google Group.

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> For more options, visithttp://groups.google.com/group/cider-workshop?hl=en- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Alexander Peckham]

Rick is that true?  I make quite a bit of pure juice cider from cider apples and although it has intense flavors and aromas I have found it difficult to get that apple aroma you speak of and which is present in so many ciders - including the "real" ciders from the middle tier producers.  It this really because of additions?   What are these additions?   I find it all quite depressing. 

Alex

[Raymond Blockley]

Speaking off my own bat, I'm pretty sure (nay certain!) that post-ferment added aromas & flavourings are *not* "...approved by CAMRA."

 

That some makers use them, some openly, some surreptitiously is without doubt. After all, such flavourings and aromas are allowed by HMRC in Notice 162.

 

See section 25 : http://tinyurl.com/borw97f

 

In my experience, the stronger apple aromas and taste are more readily apparent in the ciders I make using local dessert and culinary fruit. Using traditional bittersweets and bittersharps is a whole different ballgame of flavours and aromas.

 

Bottom line: do you want a cider that is craft and "real" in it's fullest meaning? Or something with the (fake?) appley flavour of an RTD or alcopop?

 

Only you can make that decision. :-)

 

Cheers, Ray. 

 

On 27 November 2012 18:25, Alexander Peckham <al...@sustainit.com> wrote:

Rick is that true?  I make quite a bit of pure juice cider from cider apples and although it has intense flavors and aromas I have found it difficult to get that apple aroma you speak of and which is present in so many ciders - including the "real" ciders from the middle tier producers.  It this really because of additions?   What are these additions?   I find it all quite depressing. 

Alex

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[Dougal]

During the process used to concentrate apple juice the aroma is evapourated along with moisture.  It is captured and returned to the concentrate once the process is complete.

 

Such aroma can be had from Enza, Alex.  A friend of mine used to work in the concentrate line there and played around with the aroma.  On one occasion he got it to 1200 strength, such that the product turned into an oil.

 

Some NZ cidermakers who I admire (I'm sure you can work out who, Alex) have experimented with adding apple aroma and rejected it.  There is nothing wrong with the aroma coming off your ciders, Alex.  It is much bigger and longer-lasting than I have been able to achieve.

[Alan Stone]

I seem to remember from somewhere that the big boys of NACM were trying to get them approved a few years ago - there is a technical one word name for them

Sent from my iPhone

[Raymond Blockley]

They are "permitted" by HMRC, but AFAIK no one "approves" them. I'm sure some of the big boys who are members of NACM approve of their use in their own products.....

[Alan Stone]

I would also add that personally I prefer my cider to taste of cider - I even think that adding apple juice to cider considerably deadens its taste!

Sent from my iPhone

On 27 Nov 2012, at 18:44, Raymond Blockley <raymond_...@sky.com> wrote:

[Andrew Lea]

Strictly speaking, as the NACM guidelines make clear, they are only
permitted to be added as 'restoration' aromas. See here
http://cideruk.com/files/publications/Restoration_Aroma_NACM_proposed_CoP_entry_162_text_final_edits_accepted_16_07_2010.pdf

That is to say, you can only put them back if you have used apple juice
concentrate because they are the other part of the juice (apart from
water) which is removed during concentration. This change came about
following a revision to the EU Juices and Nectars regulations which
quite rightly argued that aroma should be added back to rediluted fruit
juices made from concentrate. As Ray says, it is permitted by HMRC 162.
Though in my view their use should be limited to pre-fermentation
addition only.

However, the industry is awash with anecdotes of people adding them to
fermented ciders, and even to those which are not made from
concentrates. It's very difficult to pin this down and would be quite an
analytical challenge to prove, since they are normal components of cider
aroma anyway. Like a lot else in the food industry, it cannot be policed
and all boils down to the ethics and self-respect of the people who are
doing it :-(

Andrew

On 27/11/2012 20:20, Raymond Blockley wrote:
> They are "permitted" by HMRC, but AFAIK no one "approves" them. I'm sure
> some of the big boys who are members of NACM approve of their use in
> their own products.....
>
> On 27 November 2012 20:19, Alan Stone <shepton...@btinternet.com

> <mailto:shepton...@btinternet.com>> wrote:
>
> I seem to remember from somewhere that the big boys of NACM were
> trying to get them approved a few years ago - there is a technical
> one word name for them
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On 27 Nov 2012, at 18:44, Raymond Blockley <raymond_...@sky.com

> <mailto:raymond_...@sky.com>> wrote:
>
>> Speaking off my own bat, I'm pretty sure (nay certain!)
>> that post-ferment added aromas & flavourings are *not*
>> "...approved by CAMRA."
>> That some makers use them, some openly, some surreptitiously is
>> without doubt. After all, such flavourings and aromas are allowed
>> by HMRC in Notice 162.
>> See section 25 : http://tinyurl.com/borw97f
>> In my experience, the stronger apple aromas and taste are more
>> readily apparent in the ciders I make using local dessert and
>> culinary fruit. Using traditional bittersweets and bittersharps is
>> a whole different ballgame of flavours and aromas.
>> Bottom line: do you want a cider that is craft and "real" in it's
>> fullest meaning? Or something with the (fake?) appley flavour
>> of an RTD or alcopop?
>> Only you can make that decision. :-)
>> Cheers, Ray.
>>
>> On 27 November 2012 18:25, Alexander Peckham <al...@sustainit.com

>> <mailto:al...@sustainit.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Rick is that true? I make quite a bit of pure juice cider
>> from cider apples and although it has intense flavors and
>> aromas I have found it difficult to get that apple aroma you
>> speak of and which is present in so many ciders - including
>> the "real" ciders from the middle tier producers. It this
>> really because of additions? What are these additions? I
>> find it all quite depressing.
>>
>> Alex
>>
>> --
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Ray B
>>
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[Andrew Lea]

th

On 27/11/2012 18:44, Raymond Blockley wrote:
>
> In my experience, the stronger apple aromas and taste are more readily
> apparent in the ciders I make using local dessert and culinary fruit.
>

Just picking up on Ray's specific point, I agree that is generally true.
Few 'cider' apples apart from some renowned bittersharps like Foxwhelp
and Kingston Black have much apple aroma that persists after
fermentation. Most traditional cider aroma is created by yeast (or
bacterial) activity.

The situation has become more complex with the greater use of apple
juice for sweetening cider and for alcohol dilution in finished product.
Of necessity this enhances the 'fruitiness'. I found this very
noticeable recently when I was tasting many Australian craft ciders made
from dessert fruit and which were nearly all juice sweetened or made by
arrested fermentation. Many were distinctly fruity even though no aromas
had been added; the more so because what we in the UK would consider
normal and desirable 'oxidation' prior to fermentation is typically
frowned upon over there, so that the normal 'process volatiles' are not
generated. This can confuse the picture even more.

Andrew

[Dougal]

Was this fuitiness noticeable in dry ciders, Andrew?  New World wines, particularly those from this country, are renowned for fruity characteristics on the nose and palate.  I was wondering how much of what you were getting was from added juice and how much was from the apples.

[greg l.]

Interesting comments, Andrew. Did you find even ciders made from
traditional tannic apples were fruity? Sunshine, heat and low humidity
probably enhance the fruitiness.

Greg

[Richard Reeves]

Re: apple aromas:

When people taste the dry still cider I make from mixed desserts (9-10% A.C.) without knowing what they are drinking they try to figure what grape variety it's made from!  I do not consider this a flaw or a statement on the (lack of) quality in the starting materiel, rather it is what it is, and what it is is a delicious, balanced, sating beverage utterly fit for table, friends and hearth. They are only "apply" in the sense that some Chardonnays can be, subtle at best, more commonly elusive. The magic in the fruit trumps the whim of the chemist's hand.  I can't imagine altering them one bit, but that's just my 2 cents worth. Cheers!

Richard

[richard marlborough]

hi

i am below a nobody in the cider making world but this seems like something from frankenstein?

lol

rich

[Andrew Lea]

No I would not say so. Although some of those were running quite high in
alcohol due to fruit ripeness, they were not fruity in the sense of
reminding me of apple juice. And in reply to Dougal, I did not get to
taste many dry ciders made from dessert fruit because for commercial
reasons nearly all of them were juice sweetened. And those that I did,
didn't strike me as specially fruity. What I was picking up was the
effect of the juice I think (and/or the arrested fermentation per se).

I think we maybe need to be cautious in the use of the word 'fruity'
here. This thread began as a discussion of the addition of apple / juice
aromas. I don't think that's the same as the term 'fruity' when used in
winespeak as in "this wine has lots of fruit character". They don't mean
"this wine tastes of grape juice". For instance, they talk of Merlot
as having aromas of plums, cherries, blueberries and blackberries - but
not of grapes! Those fruity flavours come from fermentation, albeit
that the fruit itself may provide the precursors.

[skidbro...@tiscali.co.uk]

If we are relying on the "ethics and self respect of the people doing it" there should not really be an issue. After all, that route has worked admirably in other industries (Banking, market trading, social services, estate agency to name but a few) What could possibly go wrong?

Yours, with tongue firmly in cheek,

Guy

[Raymond Blockley]

Nice one Guy! Gave me a smile :-)

 

Richard's comment about wine-like ciders made from mixed desserts brings me back to the UK (historical?) perspective that Eastern Counties style ciders (ie: dominance of mixed dessert & culinary fruit) are more wine-like than their bittersweet / bittersharp West Country cousins. What goes around comes around? :-)

 

Cheers, Ray.

Ray B

[Rick Wyatt]

Me again.....

I too find it depressing - to the point where I no longer supply draught cider to festivals as I am fed up with having my cider compared with ciders that (in my opinion) have been tweaked with something beyond Sugar or Sucralose.

These ciders are understandably more appealing to the general public and therefore considered superior when in fact they are more akin to Alcopop.

Just to clarify I have nothing against any additions to cider as long as the consumer, cider buyer or judging panel are made aware that they are basing their judgement on something other than just fermented apple juice.

You are correct Ray. I have just googled the CAMRA definition and it does state "no added flavourings to be used". I just wonder if that is specific enough or deliberately wooly - either way as Andrew stated, policing it would be a nightmare.

Cheers all,

Rick.