DURFO Counter pressure filter

[John Mott]

I would appreciate hearing offline from anyone who owns or has
experience with the DURFO counter pressure filler. I believe that Vigo
distribute this machine in the UK:
http://www.durfo.com/eng/isobarica_4_eng.asp


Many thanks,

John Mott
Kimberley, ON
Canada

[Nat West]

John do you have a price and supplier in North America for this?

-Nat West, Portland Oregon

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[John Mott]

Hi Nat,

I actually ordered the unit directly from the manufacturer in Italy.
It cost 6,785 euros delivered. It is a very impressive piece of
equipment. I am about to put it into service and was hoping to make
contact with an experienced user.

I got frustrated looking for a small scale CP filler in North America.

John Mott
Kimberley, ON

> >http://groups.google.com/group/cider-workshop?hl=en- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Wes Cherry]

http://breweryparts.com/index.php/equipment-and-supplies/packaging-equipment/bottle-fillers/sparkling-filling-machine.html

One thing I don't like about this machine is the fill and co2 injection tubes emit their flow at the top of the bottle.  You will have to do a longer co2 preflush to clear the oxygen out of the bottle.

John:  how is the cycle run?  It looks like the levers on the top control the co2 preflush as well as fill.  It seems like it could get a bit hairy watching and controlling the the flush and fill levels on all 4 bottles at the same time.  

Maybe it's better to be occupied.  There   Isn't much to do while waiting the 20-30 seconds or so for the fill on my single head filler so there is a temptation to get distracted and do a quick task such as reloading the bottle rinser.  Those tasks have to go exactly as planned or else I am treated to some fun cider spray from the bleed off valve!

-'//es

[Nat West]

On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 7:44 AM, Wes Cherry <w...@dragonsheadcider.com> wrote:

http://breweryparts.com/index.php/equipment-and-supplies/packaging-equipment/bottle-fillers/sparkling-filling-machine.html

One thing I don't like about this machine is the fill and co2 injection tubes emit their flow at the top of the bottle.  You will have to do a longer co2 preflush to clear the oxygen out of the bottle.

Wes, have you seen the filler in operation?

A much, much less expensive system for those of is in North America. I have not heard first-hand from anyone with one:

 http://easyfillermanufacturing.com/index.php

[Dick Dunn]

On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 07:44:02AM -0700, Wes Cherry wrote:
> http://breweryparts.com/index.php/equipment-and-supplies/packaging-equipment/bottle-fillers/sparkling-filling-machine.html
>
> One thing I don't like about this machine is the fill and co2 injection tubes emit their flow at the top of the bottle. You will have to do a longer co2 preflush to clear the oxygen out of the bottle.

Wes, I've tried to understand the pre-purge idea--used with various
fillers, not just this one. It doesn't make sense to me. Why put
(for example) 500 ml of CO2 into a bottle and then push out 480 ml?
The CO2 needs to fill only the headspace. Or am I missing something?

I started thinking about this with the Beer Gun, a much simpler filler
but one which introduces both CO2 and liquid at the bottom of the bottle.
The suggested usage is to give a good shot of CO2 to fill the bottle, then
fill it with liquid. Because the tube sits in the bottle, you fill to the
neck, then withdraw the fill tube leaving a reasonable headspace. BUT in
completely filling with fluid, ALL of the CO2 is pushed out. Then, by
withdrawing the tube, the headspace so created is filled with ambient air,
and the flush is for nothing.
--
Dick Dunn rc...@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA

[Wes Cherry]

I think you might be pretty unhappy with the EasyFiller.   Watch the video -- the amount of fiddling with valves that are all over the place, especially the rush to turn each off at the end of the fill seems hectic.  There's a really high potential for overfills too.

The HDP fillers look to be well made and not very fiddly.   They are also expensive -- $5K for the single head unit to $28K for the 4 head automatic fill/capper.

http://www.hdpcanada.com/   Click on Beverage then For information on HDP Counter-Pressure Bottle Fillers and Filler/ Crowners then Filler Information Sheet.

Has anyone seen them in action?

My filler right now is a morebeerpro counterpressure filler mounted on a vertical sled.     I used sailboat T track but a drawer slide would work.

http://morebeerpro.com/view_product/18279/101787/Counter_Pressure_Bottle_Filler

When everything is set up and dialed in I can fill about 80 bottles per hour.   One operator could run two of these and a capper at the same time to get 160 bottles per hour.

-'//es Cherry

w...@dragonsheadcider.com

Vashon WA, USA

[Wes Cherry]

The slight foaming you get after depressurizing the bottle should provide the CO2 for the headspace. The headspace is also pressurized so the net gas flux is out of the bottle.

CO2 purge is useful because the fill process is somewhat splashy so some oxygen is picked up by the cider in the fill. You will get even more splashing if the fill tube doesn't extend to the bottom of the bottle. The Blichmann unit is reportedly quite gentle so oxygen pickup is probably low.

I have no idea how much this matters, or if it has any real effect on product stability and shelf life. High end automated fillers do multiple CO2 purge/vacuum evacuations before doing product fill, so it must have some effect.

-'//es Cherry
w...@dragonsheadcider.com
Vashon WA, USA

[Andrew Lea]

If I understand Dick's query right, the pre-purge is to eliminate all
air in the system to reduce the amount of fobbing (foaming) as the
bottle is de-pressurised after filling. Any air left in the bottle
allows fobbing because it is insoluble in the liquid under pressure
whereas CO2 dissolves. Hence liquid comes out in a great whoosh under
the action of a small but important residual volume of compressed air,
whereas if only CO2 is involved the liquid doesn't erupt and just stays
gently supersaturated with CO2 till you can get the cap on.

This is how it was explained to me by the manufacturer when I was using
a professional combined carbonator CP filler (where actually AFAIR it
was a managed post-purge or 'snift', before full pressure-release but
it's for the same reason I think). (They also preferred us to vacuum
de-aerate the liquid before carbonation for the same reason).

I hope I'm remembering correctly and barking up the same tree as you
guys ;-)

Andrew

--
Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

[John Mott]

Yes, that's right Wes, the top lever initiates the co2 flush in the
detente position and the liquid fill in the fully down position.

It doesn't look like anyone else is going to fess up to owning one of
these models, so I will report back.

John Mott
Kimberley, ON


On Jun 16, 10:44 am, Wes Cherry <w...@dragonsheadcider.com> wrote:
> http://breweryparts.com/index.php/equipment-and-supplies/packaging-eq...

>
> One thing I don't like about this machine is the fill and co2 injection tubes emit their flow at the top of the bottle.  You will have to do a longer co2 preflush to clear the oxygen out of the bottle.
>
> John:  how is the cycle run?  It looks like the levers on the top control the co2 preflush as well as fill.  It seems like it could get a bit hairy watching and controlling the the flush and fill levels on all 4 bottles at the same time.
>
> Maybe it's better to be occupied.  There   Isn't much to do while waiting the 20-30 seconds or so for the fill on my single head filler so there is a temptation to get distracted and do a quick task such as reloading the bottle rinser.  Those tasks have to go exactly as planned or else I am treated to some fun cider spray from the bleed off valve!
>
> -'//es
>

> On Jun 15, 2012, at 9:56 PM, Nat West <natjw...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > John do you have a price and supplier in North America for this?
>
> > -Nat West, Portland Oregon
>

> > On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 8:21 PM, John Mott <jrmo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I would appreciate hearing offline from anyone who owns or has
> > experience with the DURFO counter pressure filler. I believe that Vigo
> > distribute this machine in the UK:
> >http://www.durfo.com/eng/isobarica_4_eng.asp
>
> > Many thanks,
>
> > John Mott
> > Kimberley, ON
> > Canada
>
> > --
> > Visit our website:http://www.ciderworkshop.com
>
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Cider Workshop"  Google Group.

> > By joining and posting to the Cider Workshop, you have agreed to abide by our rules, and principles. Please seehttp://www.ciderworkshop.com/resources_principles.html

>
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> > For more options, visithttp://groups.google.com/group/cider-workshop?hl=en

>
> > --
> > Visit our website:http://www.ciderworkshop.com
>
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Cider Workshop" Google Group.

> > By joining and posting to the Cider Workshop, you have agreed to abide by our rules, and principles. Please seehttp://www.ciderworkshop.com/resources_principles.html

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[Nat West]

On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 9:19 AM, Wes Cherry <w...@dragonsheadcider.com> wrote: 

When everything is set up and dialed in I can fill about 80 bottles per hour.

That is impressive speed! How long does a single bottle fill take? That's the slowest part of my process, just waiting for the bottle to fill. If I go too fast, I loose too much CO2.

-Nat West 

[Wes Cherry]

45 second cycle.   10 second purge, 30 second fill, 5 for capping and bottle movement.

That's dialed in with someone else handling bottle deboxing, rinsing and load/unload of the pasteurizer.   In practice the real overall rate is 60 bph with all the other overhead such as filling the cider source keg.

Having the bottles at near the same temp as the cider helps greatly to reduce fobbing.

I use a spray carbonator that carbonates as I am bottling.  I get my desired carbonation level spraying 10 deg C cider, so the temp shock at bottling causes relatively little fobbing.   

-'//es

--

[Alexander Peckham]

What is a spray carbonator?

Alex

[Joe O'Rourke]

Alex,

I'm new to the site/forum but I'd like to chip in......

My understanding thus far is...
To carbonate one needs to mix CO2 into the liquid. To do this effectively
one needs to chill the liquid, to more readily absorb the gas, I believe
down to around 10 degrees.
If you spray the liquid and gas at the same time through a small head, a
mixing of sorts is achieved.

There are other possibilities such as creating an artificially induced
cavitation in the liquid/gas stream. Cavitation makes cavities which
compress/implode upon themselves forcing the gas into the liquid.
The cute part with cavitation/spray/ filling is that you don't need to chill
the liquid so much, you have less froth/foam and much less under fill when
bottling and a more thorough mixing is achieved.

I welcome more sage advice or comments from others as I to would like to
learn more. My background is vinegar fermentation, lots of gas liquid mixing
but at a different scale and technology.
We work to infuse air into a liquid as a blunt but sophisticated and
economic delivery vehicle to get oxygen to our beloved acetobacter(vinegar
bacteria), allowing them to survive whilst submerged in a fermentation broth
I discovered the cavitation gas /liquid mixing option whilst researching
something else.


Joe O'Rourke

[Nat West]

John, you've had a couple weeks. How does the DURFO filler stand up? What kind of throughput are you getting? And is it worth nearly $9000 USD?

-Nat West, Portland Oregon

On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 2:46 PM, John Mott <jrm...@gmail.com> wrote:

Yes, that's right Wes, the top lever initiates the co2 flush in the
detente position and the liquid fill in the fully down position.

It doesn't look like anyone else is going to fess up to owning one of
these models, so I will report back.

John Mott
Kimberley, ON


On Jun 16, 10:44 am, Wes Cherry <w...@dragonsheadcider.com> wrote:

http://breweryparts.com/index.php/equipment-and-supplies/packaging-equipment/bottle-fillers/sparkling-filling-machine.html

[John Mott]

Thanks for your interest, Nat.

Still making preparations. I have about 2000 L to bottle, so I am targeting the beginning of August when I'll be on holiday.

I probably should have pointed out that this is for a small commercial operation, not my own consumption ;)

I will be sure to report back, hopefully with videos.

John Mott

[Nat West]

Hi John, I am continuing to pester you about the DURFO filler to see what throughput you're getting. I am tentatively saving my pennies for a six-head Meheen, but at $57k USD it's a big jump up from the $8500 DURFO which is itself a large jump from my DIY 2-head CP filler from Morebeer.

-Nat West, Portland Oregon

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[John Mott]

Almost there, Nat. I'll be transferring cider to the bright tank today or tomorrow, and then starting the chilling and carbonation. By the way, I found the Meheen site very helpful on the subject of carbonation.

Kind regards,

/John

[John Mott]

OK, Nat, I am finally able to report back on the Durfo C/P filler. 

Yesterday, my wife and I bottled 900 liters – I was on the filler and she was on the capper. We were done by 5:30pm! 

The filling machine worked like a charm. There was absolutely no foaming. The fill level was perfect and consistent. I am not the most coordinated person in the world, but I had no trouble keeping up with the 4-spout operation. The machine is well designed and the construction quality is very high. There are many thoughtful design features that I came to appreciate. 

The rated capacity of this machine is 200 bottles per hour. Once we got into the rhythm, we timed ourselves at 192 bottles per hour (750 ml). This included the time required to shift the boxes around. When we later switched over to 500 ml bottles, there was a marked increase in throughput. By the way, the switchover from 750ml to 500ml takes less than a minute. 

The principle of this machine’s operation is exactly like the conventional rotary filler described on the Meheen website. It does take some experience to maintain the proper equilibrium in the system, which I have not yet totally mastered. But this is primarily controlled by a bleeder valve at the top of the machine. Unfortunately the documentation provided with the machine is not very helpful in this regard and I was unable to obtain any additional guidance from the manufacturer. 

The limitation of the machine is that air will not be totally removed from the headspace. To counteract this deficiency, I gave every bottle a shot of CO2 with a homemade device. 

Here are a few additional facts about my set-up: 

- the cider was chilled down to 1 C 

- the filling room and the bottles were 10 C 

- the cider was carbonated to 2 volumes (5 psi) 

- the feed line was insulated with foam 

- the cider was fed by pressure from the carbonation tank (i.e. no pump or filter) 

Overall I am very pleased with this acquisition. I think the machine is well suited to the scale of my operation. 

I recorded a video of the machine in operation, but I am presently limited to a (slow) wireless internet connection. I will upload when I’m back in the city. 

If you are interested, Nat, I am happy to send you the operating manual and some additional operating tips from my experience.

 

…./John Mott

 

 

On Thursday, August 9, 2012 4:10:59 PM UTC-4, Nat wrote:

[Nat West]

900 liters in a day is pretty good for a fully-manual operation.

One calculation I'm having a hard time with is that you are using two people and get 192 bph, so 96 bph/person. That is an important calculation to me, as I'm sure it is to you, making cider for a business, not just personal. With a single-head extremely manual counter pressure filler, I am getting over 80 bph with a single person which includes capping, rinsing, box movement, etc. With two people, I could get very close to your bph by using two single-head fillers, and save myself ~$8300.

I do plan to gang together three single-head fillers, we'll see how that goes. I do not believe this DURFO machine is in my future. I'll probably go from my ganged-together single heads to a Meheen.

Thank you for the report. A video of you in the rhythm would be very helpful. Thank you!

-Nat West, Portland Oregon

[Alexander Peckham]

The Meheen looks great but the price tag here is about 100k so out of be question. Also it is setup only to deal with one type of bottle which limits it. I will bath most of my cider - bottling currently done on contract - and can't see how such a pasteuriser would keep up with a fast bottling machine. I don't understand why there aren't more lower cost counter pressure filler systems arround as they are relatively simple machines?

Alex

[John Mott]

I'm sure I will have plenty of opportunities in the future to perform the bottling single-handed. At the risk of hastening the day, I can say for sure that there wouldn't be a 50% reduction in throughput. With 500ml bottles, in particular, and a fire under my butt, I'm pretty sure I could push it close to the 200 per hour mark.

I will say that the pre-set fill level is a very nice feature. 

/John Mott

[Nat West]

On Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 3:15 PM, John Mott <jrm...@gmail.com> wrote:

I will say that the pre-set fill level is a very nice feature. 

What's that?

A video you said?

-Nat West, Portland Oregon

[Rich Anderson]

Small commercial CP fillers are not exactly turnkey devices. Ours is a two
filler/two capper unit which can do 150-160 750's per hour. In addition to
delivering product at the correct temperature and pressure to the unit, it
has high and low CO2 feeds which require monitoring, the main issues are
insuring that in addition to having an adequate CO2 feed that all the valves
and lines are correctly hooked up and in good working condition. When
everything is working, life is good, if not you can spend a bit of time
trouble shooting. If you are going to setup your own bottling line, the main
thing is to try to right size it for the amount of cider you plan to bottle
in each lot, keeping in mind the number of tasks you want to accomplish and
minimize the number times you handle each bottle. Also consider how you are
going to clean the unit after each use.

[John Mott]

The filling stops automatically when the level a reaches a certain point on the filling spout. To quote the Meheen site:  "The final fill level in the bottle is determined by the length of the center tube in the filling head. Beer will only fill the bottle until it reaches the end of the center tube, because it will flow back into the bowl through the center tube until it reaches its own level." He was describing an "old generation" rotary filler, but the principal is the same with the Durfo machine.

The spouts supplied with my machine fill to about 5 cms from the top of the bottle. You can order different length spouts from the manufacturer as required.

/John Mott

ps - I'm afraid you will have to wait until September for the video - I am facing a ridiculous upload time where I am.

[Nat West]

So it's just dumping foamy, overfilled cider back into the bowl? Let's say you leave it on and go for a walk. Is it just recirculating cider through? Or does it rapidly reach pressure equilibrium between bottle and bowl?

-Nat West, Portland Oregon

--

[John Mott]

Hi Nat,

You literally can start the filling and go for a walk. In reality, when you are into the rhythm, the filled bottles are only sitting momentarily. With 4 spouts filling at once, the real benefit is that you get a consistent fill level every time and you don't have to be watching like a hawk.

As I mentioned previously, I did not experience any foaming.

The pressure between the bottle and the bowl is equalized at the pre-flush step. When the lever is pulled to fill, cider is flowing into the bottle by gravity, not pressure. I guess technically there is some re-circulation when the fill level is reached, but the pressure differential at that point would be very low and the flow rate would be very low. Whatever circulation there is, it did not generate any foaming.

/John

[Nat West]

On Mon, Aug 27, 2012 at 8:39 AM, John Mott <jrm...@gmail.com> wrote:

When the lever is pulled to fill, cider is flowing into the bottle by gravity, not pressure.

Ah hah! That is certainly an interesting feature, something I had not considered. Thanks John for everything. I'm still looking forward to that video when you get a chance.

-Nat West, Portland Oregon

[Nat West]

Hi John, still patiently awaiting delivery of your video. And yes, I'm blatantly looking a gift horse in the mouth. I may be purchasing this bottler in the coming month and want to put eyes on the operation of it.

-Nat West, Portland Oregon