Shelf life of apple juice?

[Dave]

What is the industry recognised shelf life of pasteurised apple juice?
ie. if I pasteurise fresh pressed juice today (70C held for 20
minutes) what would be the best before date to put on it?
Some say 18 months some say 24 months, or as it is "best before" does
it not really matter.

[Andrew Lea]

It really doesn't matter - it's the producer's choice. If the
pasteurisation is properly done it will never blow up nor poison anyone.
Maybe the plastic caps age and leak eventually but I have never
experienced that. I would date it at least 2 years hence. The most
important thing it seems to me is a practical one - that you can sell
all your stock before its BBE date, because people won't want to buy it
after that!

Andrew

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[Dave]

Thank you Andrew.
I ask because I do indeed have some stock approaching the 18 month
best before date I usually use.
I think this juice may well have its BB date extended to 2 years.

[Terence Welch]

I work with a farm here in California that sent 80,000 lbs of Jonagolds, Braeburns and Fuji,  to be juiced for a "farm label" product to sell at the farmers markets. I also had heard 2 years was maximum, but when I talked to the apple juice factory owner/manager, he told me the shelf life is indefinite, if properly done.  The juice was extracted using huge vacuum units, then was heated to 203 degrees Fahrenheit, not sure what the duration was, and bottled  It tastes to me like it has an off flavor, not the normal overcooked flavor typically experienced from apple juice in bottled in glass quarts from my local health food store, for example.   I was disappointed in the results.  We will finish selling the juice at farmers markets about 2.5 years after it was bottled (in glass quarts).

The same juice canned on a smaller scale, using small-scale conventional pressing methods, and heated to 170 degrees tastes cooked, but doesn't have the same off flavor.  Both batches had similar delicious flavors after pressing, before being heated. 

Any comments or insights about the flavor?  Is it simply the difference in heating temperature?

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Aptos, CA 95001

831-435-8733 cell
831-479-8733 office/fax

[Andrew Lea]

Not quite sure what you mean by 'huge vacuum units'. Those sound like
vacuum evaporators, not juice extractors. 203F is 95C and is a standard
HTST (high temperature short time) pasteurisation temperature - the
juice is held there for just a few seconds and then flash cooled before
packing. 170F is 77C which is the standard small scale batch
pasteurisation temperature. This is more likely to lead to cooked
flavours than HTST, unless protected with ascorbic acid, which is what
nearly everyone in the UK does (but is rarely done in the US, for
reasons I don't understand).

There are several possible reasons for 'off flavours' of apple juice,
including the continued action of thermophilic bacteria
(Alicyclobacillus acidoterrestis) in bottle, especially if they get warm
during long term storage. This generates guaiacol which has a medicinal
flavour. Perhaps being in California that is what you are experiencing?
Another possibility is light-struck metallic flavours if it's in clear
bottles http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17910509

Andrew

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[Jason]

If it is properly pasturised then you have 2 years (24 months) under
EU law- under EU law everything hits the 2 year rule, even salt has a
2 year shelf life- you'd want to add a 'once opened keppe
refridgerated and consume within three days' to the label to keep the
EU happy.

In real terms it will l;ast for ever if pasturised properly, if sold
fresh then you would need to speak with the authorities- but from a
food safety positition pasturise at the lowest temeperature (which
extends the time needed) and label as 24 months. Or make apple jam,
same thing, 24 months

On Oct 22, 6:53 pm, Andrew Lea <y...@cider.org.uk> wrote:
> Not quite sure what you mean by 'huge vacuum units'. Those sound like
> vacuum evaporators, not juice extractors. 203F is 95C and is a standard
> HTST (high temperature short time) pasteurisation temperature - the
> juice is held there for just a few seconds and then flash cooled before
> packing. 170F is 77C which is the standard small scale batch
> pasteurisation temperature. This is more likely to lead to cooked
> flavours than HTST, unless protected with ascorbic acid, which is what
> nearly everyone in the UK does (but is rarely done in the US, for
> reasons I don't understand).
>
> There are several possible reasons for 'off flavours' of apple juice,
> including the continued action of thermophilic bacteria
> (Alicyclobacillus acidoterrestis) in bottle, especially if they get warm
> during long term storage. This generates guaiacol which has a medicinal
> flavour. Perhaps being in California that is what you are experiencing?
> Another possibility is light-struck metallic flavours if it's in clear

> bottleshttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17910509

>
> Andrew
>
> On 22/10/2011 16:28, Terence Welch wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > I work with a farm here in California that sent 80,000 lbs of Jonagolds,
> > Braeburns and Fuji,  to be juiced for a "farm label" product to sell at
> > the farmers markets. I also had heard 2 years was maximum, but when I
> > talked to the apple juice factory owner/manager, he told me the shelf
> > life is indefinite, if properly done.  The juice was extracted using
> > huge vacuum units, then was heated to 203 degrees Fahrenheit, not sure
> > what the duration was, and bottled  It tastes to me like it has an off
> > flavor, not the normal overcooked flavor typically
> > experienced from apple juice in bottled in glass quarts from my local
> > health food store, for example.   I was disappointed in the results.  We
> > will finish selling the juice at farmers markets about 2.5 years after
> > it was bottled (in glass quarts).
> > The same juice canned on a smaller scale, using small-scale conventional
> > pressing methods, and heated to 170 degrees tastes cooked, but doesn't
> > have the same off flavor.  Both batches had similar delicious
> > flavors after pressing, before being heated.
> > Any comments or insights about the flavor?  Is it simply the difference
> > in heating temperature?
>

[Andrew Lea]

On 23/10/2011 16:27, Jason wrote:
> If it is properly pasturised then you have 2 years (24 months) under
> EU law- under EU law everything hits the 2 year rule, even salt has a
> 2 year shelf life-

That's nonsense. Both cooking and table salt are exempt from date
marking. See
http://www.defra.gov.uk/publications/files/pb132629-food-date-labelling-110915.pdf
page 18.

And please tell us where we can find the EU 2-year rule which you talk of.

Andrew

[Jez Howat]

In actual fact, according to my Trading Standards officer, if the product
lasts longer than 2 years you don't require a BBE, but ought to use batch
numbering so that it can be tracked. If it is deemed to fall within 2 years,
then it needs a BBE/use by date. There is nothing that I can find online
that alters this.

Once the product is opened I would advise spelling out how long it will last
and how it should be kept.

This is a perennial question I get for the bag in boxes with cider - how
long will it last. Sometimes even for a festival where the shelf life is a
day or two! On the labels for BinB's I now always give the bagging date and
state 3 months (I have seen 6 on some boxes, but always been fortunate that
it never lasts beyond the first month). So much depends on how it is stored,
served etc.

All the best

Jez

[Raymond Blockley]

Westons' "real" cider BiBs have BBE dates that are often a couple of years down-the-line...

 

Ray.

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[Alan Stone]

almost certainly flash pasturised --- On Mon, 24/10/11, Raymond Blockley <raymond_...@sky.com> wrote:

[JezH]

Ah, thats different then. I dont pasteurise (but I do take the rat out:-)

I have seen other producers stating 6 months for a BiB. I generally go with 3, although I really ought to try the experiment!

Jez

[Raymond Blockley]

I believe they call it "hot filling"....

[Raymond Blockley]

We always state 3 months, though we had one of our BiBs that we 'missed' for 6 months, opened it and then spent another few weeks emptying it. Fine and good as new.

 

Ray  

[Michael Cobb]

Talking to the proprietor of Jigsaw, must be a couple of years ago now, I
asked about shelf life and he talked about one of his customers hot
filling - up to about 50c as it went in the bag if I remember correctly.

Incidently I was at Jigsaw last week to get some new bags and he showed me
a new product - a bag without a box. Three litre capacity designed to sit
on a worktop. The bag was white with a clear window like you often see on
kettles nowadays. Might be useful for giving cider as Christmas presents,
but for my own use I will stick with over filled 10 l bags in a 20l box.

Michael Cobb

> I believe they call it "hot filling"....
>
> On 24 October 2011 10:32, Alan Stone <shepton...@btinternet.com>
> wrote:
>
>> almost certainly flash pasturised
>>

>> --- On *Mon, 24/10/11, Raymond Blockley <raymond_...@sky.com>*

[greg l.]

Surely cider in BiB would oxidise well before 2 years elapsed? Not
that I have experience of this, but the bags are said to be oxygen
permeable.

Greg

[Jason]

I'm not talking rubbish, I wrote some of the rules, over 10% and in
certain conditions then the 2 year rule doesn't apply, that's how 200
year bottles of wine are sold, but check your salt and it will have a
BBD- things like eggs have a use by date, which means you should dump
them by that date, best before just indicates a suggested expiry date-
but everyone does BB 2 years

[Tim]

Where did Greg say you were talking rubbish?

--

[Raymond Blockley]

Jason,

 

Tim is correct about your response to Greg's post. I can't see anywhere that Greg has accused you of talking rubbish.

Please review what you intend posting to the group before clicking "send".

 

I also agree with Tim and Julian that your posts appear to have little real relevance to a group concerned with real cider and real perry. I'm sure you'd get much better and more relevant responses from some of the many brewing forums.

 

Cheers, Ray.

--
Ray B

[Dave]

I think Jason was replying to Andrews post, not Greg's before you go
all wobbly on him.

[Terence Welch]

On Sat, Oct 22, 2011 at 10:53 AM, Andrew Lea <y...@cider.org.uk> wrote:

Not quite sure what you mean by 'huge vacuum units'. Those sound like vacuum evaporators, not juice extractors.

YOU WERE RIGHT, THEY ARE SOME KIND OF HUGE  PRESS, THEY ONLY USE A VACUUM TO PULL BACK THE DIAPHAGM INSIDE.

203F is 95C and is a standard HTST (high temperature short time) pasteurisation temperature - the juice is held there for just a few seconds and then flash cooled before packing.

THE JUICE WAS HELD AT 95 C. FOR 30 SECONDS, THEN FLASH COOLED.

170F is 77C which is the standard small scale batch pasteurisation temperature. This is more likely to lead to cooked flavours than HTST, unless protected with ascorbic acid, which is what nearly everyone in the UK does (but is rarely done in the US, for reasons I don't understand).

There are several possible reasons for 'off flavours' of apple juice, including the continued action of thermophilic bacteria (Alicyclobacillus acidoterrestis) in bottle, especially if they get warm during long term storage.

THE BEST DESCRIPTION OF THE "OFF-FLAVOR" (SORRY, JUST CAN'T BRING MYSELF TO ADD A "U" TO THAT WORD) IS THAT IT TASTES LIKE DISINFECTANT, WHICH IS HOW THE FLAVOR FROM  GUAIACOL WAS DESCRIBED ON THE WEBSITE I VISITED.  THE QUESTION BECOMES, WHEN WOULD THE A. ACIDOTERRISTIS HAVE MULTIPLIED IN THE APPLES AND/OR JUICE?

THE JUICE FROM THE FACTORY HAD THE OFF FLAVOR WHEN I FIRST TASTED IT, 48 HOURS AFTER BOTTLING.  IT'S BEEN STORED AT AMBIENT TEMPERATURE IN A WAREHOUSE WHICH PROBABLY AVERAGES 60 DEGREES F. IN SUMMER, AND 45 DEGREES F. IN WINTER.  BEFORE THE JUICE WAS MADE, THE WHOLE FRUIT WAS OUT AT AMBIENT TEMPERATURE IN THE SHADE IN BINS FOR UP TO 1 WEEK.  OUR EARLY SEPTEMBER (WHEN THIS FRUIT WAS HARVESTED) HIGH TEMPERATURES ARE 85 TO 90 DEGREES F., AND OUR LOWS AT NIGHT ARE AROUND 55 DEGREES F.  IF THERE WERE SOME PROBLEMS WITH THERMOPHILIC BACTERIA, COULD IT HAVE HAPPENED AT THE WHOLE FRUIT STAGE, AND WOULDN'T I HAVE TASTED IT IN THE RAW JUICE AT THE FACTORY PRIOR TO BOTTLING, WHICH WE DID DRINK AND WAS PERFECTLY DELICIOUS?

This generates guaiacol which has a medicinal flavour. Perhaps being in California that is what you are experiencing? Another possibility is light-struck metallic flavours if it's in clear bottles http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17910509

IT'S IN CLEAR BOTTLES, BUT AS PART OF THE BOTTLING PROCESS, THE BOTTLES WERE REMOVED FROM THEIR CARDBOARD CARTONS, THEN REPLACED IN THE SAME CARTONS, AND THE LIDS TAPED SHUT, IMMIEDIATELY AFTER BOTTLING, SO NO EXPOSURE TO LIGHT.
Andrew

THANKS FOR THE CAREFUL CONSIDERATION...ANY OTHER POSSIBILITIES?  IF I'M IN YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD, I'LL DROP BY WITH A BOTTLE FOR YOU TO TASTE!

On 22/10/2011 16:28, Terence Welch wrote:

I work with a farm here in California that sent 80,000 lbs of Jonagolds,
Braeburns and Fuji,  to be juiced for a "farm label" product to sell at
the farmers markets. I also had heard 2 years was maximum, but when I
talked to the apple juice factory owner/manager, he told me the shelf
life is indefinite, if properly done.  The juice was extracted using
huge vacuum units, then was heated to 203 degrees Fahrenheit, not sure
what the duration was, and bottled  It tastes to me like it has an off
flavor, not the normal overcooked flavor typically
experienced from apple juice in bottled in glass quarts from my local
health food store, for example.   I was disappointed in the results.  We
will finish selling the juice at farmers markets about 2.5 years after
it was bottled (in glass quarts).
The same juice canned on a smaller scale, using small-scale conventional
pressing methods, and heated to 170 degrees tastes cooked, but doesn't
have the same off flavor.  Both batches had similar delicious
flavors after pressing, before being heated.
Any comments or insights about the flavor?  Is it simply the difference
in heating temperature?

On Sat, Oct 22, 2011 at 12:05 AM, Dave <peasgoodnonsuch@googlemail.com

<mailto:peasgoodnonsuch@googlemail.com>> wrote:

   Thank you Andrew.
   I ask because I do indeed have some stock approaching the 18 month
   best before date I usually use.
   I think this juice may well have its BB date extended to 2 years.

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[Andrew Lea]

On 24/10/2011 22:49, Terence Welch wrote:

>
> There are several possible reasons for 'off flavours' of apple
> juice, including the continued action of thermophilic bacteria
> (Alicyclobacillus acidoterrestis) in bottle, especially if they get
> warm during long term storage.
>
> THE BEST DESCRIPTION OF THE "OFF-FLAVOR" (SORRY, JUST CAN'T BRING MYSELF
> TO ADD A "U" TO THAT WORD) IS THAT IT TASTES LIKE DISINFECTANT, WHICH IS
> HOW THE FLAVOR FROM GUAIACOL WAS DESCRIBED ON THE WEBSITE I VISITED.
> THE QUESTION BECOMES, WHEN WOULD THE A. ACIDOTERRISTIS HAVE MULTIPLIED
> IN THE APPLES AND/OR JUICE?
>

You will find a good deal about it if you Google for it. Sounds very
much like ACB to me. The bacteria form spores which are stimulated to
germinate by the heat of pasteurisation itself. Then they continue to
grow in the juice. The flavour threshold of guaicol is very low (ppb) so
even the tiniest amount of bacterial activity is enough to do this. It
is possible they are endemic in the apple juice plant itself - do all
batches produced there have this problem, or just yours? Any
well-briefed juice plant should know all about ACB because it is a
chronic problem now in many commercial juice packing operations. It was
pretty much unknown 20 years ago. For some reason it particularly
affects the larger HTST operations and not the smaller batch processors
- this may be to do with the way the bacterial spores germinate.

Andrew

[Terence Welch]

thx, Andrew. Yes, I have tasted other juice from this plant, and can taste the same flavor. Very valuable information which I'll be able to take action on, thx again, Terence

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[Andrew Lea]

Sounds like your juice packers need to have a serious clean up! I hope
they recognise the problem themselves and are not in denial! If they are
members of the US Juice Producers Association
http://www.juiceproducts.org/index.html they may be able to find
consultancy advice through that route.

Andrew

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[Barrie Scott]

I am about to pasteurise some apple juice into 5L Bag & Box and reading through this post has answered most of my questions bar one.
I am hot filling the bags with a through flow Voran pasteuriser.
So if the 5L bags are filled at 77 degrees C should I cool the bags straight away to avoid any burnt flavour's, or does the juice need more time at a high temperature in the bag so that pasteurisation is effective.

[Marius Persinaru]

Hi Barrie.

i'm using the same Voran pasteurizer and I don't do anything special after filling the bags so there is no burnt flavour in it>

Marius

From: Barrie Scott <barriemy...@googlemail.com>
To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 7:12 PM
Subject: [Cider Workshop] Re: Shelf life of apple juice?

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[Andrew Lea]

You need to find the thread on pasteurisation units (PU's) and read that.

Let's say you need 500 PU for an apple juice. At 77C I calculate that
takes just two minutes (assuming no rise time therefore 'flash
heating'). So after 2 minutes you could cool it.

The juice is unlikely to taste burnt if allowed to cool naturally but it
might be a bit caramelised if you are not using ascorbic acid in the
process. Shouldn't be unpleasant though.

Andrew

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[Barrie Scott]

Thanks Andrew. I may well do a little experiment with the thermometer and calculate the PU's. I am using ascorbic acid. As this is my first attempt at apple juice I will try cooling and not cooling a couple of bags and leave them a side to see what happens. Thanks for the quick response.