Bulk storage 101

[AdamD]

Hi all..

I often ponder the problem of bulk storage vessels. It seems to me that it is a bit of a dilema which options to take for the small commercial cider producer who isn't absolutely rolling in cash. Fermentation vessels are less problematic, good quality HPDE is moderately priced and easily available new or second hand.

From our perspective (very small commercial: 2K litres 2011, possibly 4K this year) we want to be able to store cider without air getting to it, but also use it incrementally. Currently we ferment and mature in 220L HDPE barrels, then we have splashed out on 2x 220 variable capacity stainless steel tanks, which altogether cost £970 delivered for the pair from VIGO. We rack one batch at a time from maturation to these and so have 1 cider and 1 perry available at any one time. It seems to me the ideal would be to have enough variable capacity stainless steel to store everything we make, but this is very expensive. This year we are probably moving to IBCs for fermentation, and 1000L stainless tanks we may be able to get for around £1K direct from Italy. If you assume to make £2 per litre wholesale on the product, that is at least 2 years paying back, and that's without the other capital items we already have to pay back before we get out of the red.

It would be nice to have more different ciders available at any one time.

Last year we tried the large bags from TPS rental systems, but it didn't really work for us.

Some people say the variable capacity/floating lid stainless tanks are not so good because of dust and flies getting in around the seals and gunk build up around the seals. Others swear by them.

Some people seem to manage racking into increasingly small vessels but from my perspective I want to pump around as little as possible.

Are there other options I don't know about?

I would be really interested to hear how other producers sell a batch of cider gradually without introducing air and without breaking the bank.

Thanks
Adam

[Tim]

Looks like you have money to burn if you are buying stainless steel, there is absolutely nothing wrong with Oak and if you hunt around you can get some good deals on quantity.

 

Tim in Dorset

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[AdamD]

So you have a 200 litre oak barrel of cider. You sell a couple of 20L bag in boxes one week, 5 the next, a 25L tub the week after that then have no orders for 4 weeks. You then have 35L of cider lying in a barrel with loads of air. What's the solution to that?

[Tim]

Co2 injected in the top, I use it all the time, if you want to automate it find a local cellar service man and get him to install aspirators J

 

Tim

[AdamD]

Yes, this is the kind of advice I was hoping for. Do you mean that there is a device that automatically feeds enough CO2 to keep everything safe? What ball park kind of money are we talking? Does anyone use this with HPDE? I've got nothing against wood barrels by the way, just wandering..

Also as a general point, would it be considered safe by people on here to mature in HDPE for as long as say a year?

[Tim]

No idea on cost, ask your local landlord who he uses, most cellarmen will do the job at a sensible rate if they use second hand gear.

 

Tim

 

 

From: cider-w...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cider-w...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of AdamD
Sent: 18 September 2012 19:37
To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Bulk storage 101

 

Yes, this is the kind of advice I was hoping for. Do you mean that there is a device that automatically feeds enough CO2 to keep everything safe? What ball park kind of money are we talking? Does anyone use this with HPDE? I've got nothing against wood barrels by the way, just wandering..

Also as a general point, would it be considered safe by people on here to mature in HDPE for as long as say a year?

--

[Josephine Dakin]

But don't fall foul of Her Maj's Revenue and Customs! Any flavour imparted to your cider from an oak barrel contravenes Notice 162 and then the cider attracts duty for "made wine" even though you're making less than 7000 litres.

--
Jo Dakin
The Little Orchard Company
www.thelittleorchardcompany.co.uk

[Raymond Blockley]

Yep, I use it with HDPE. It's all in the archive and how I made up my own cap to inject the CO2 into each HDPE container (I use 60L & 220L ones).

 

See if this link to the images still works:

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/85531509@N00/sets/72157624915664974/

 

Ray

On 18 September 2012 19:38, Tim <t...@marshwoodvalecider.com> wrote:

--
Ray B

[Andrew Lea]

On 18/09/2012 19:45, Josephine Dakin wrote:
> But don't fall foul of Her Maj's Revenue and Customs! Any flavour
> imparted to your cider from an oak barrel contravenes Notice 162 and
> then the cider attracts duty for "made wine" even though you're making
> less than 7000 litres.

Not true! Only if previously-contained spirit flavours are transferred.
Nick Bradstock gave chapter and verse on this not long ago AFAIR (search
the list archives). Normal oak ageing is quite permissible.

Andrew

--
Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

[Raymond Blockley]

No it won't! Only if it has previously contained lots of spirits that haven't been emptied out... This was discussed at length some time back.

 

Ray

Ray B

[Josephine Dakin]

:-D

All of the oak barrels I come across (and there's every possibility that I'm not looking hard enough) have had whiskey in them fairly recently. Even when you pour it all out, the cider still takes on a distinct whiskey flavour during maturation. That's all I was trying to say!

[Cheshire Matt]

35L?  What about a 30L barrel and a demijohn?  Or a number of 30/60Litres that you can rack into and fill 3x 20L BiB from a 60L etc etc  You only need enough combinations to get you up to 200/220L.

[Raymond Blockley]

Ahhh that's different! :-) Tim is not talking about ex-spirit barrels. Yes, you have to be very careful with ex-spirit or ex-wine barrels. But if they are rinsed out thoroughly and carefull cleaned, you should be OK...

 

Ray. 

[Tim]

Don’t be silly Josephine, you really think all the cider makers are going to buy stainless steel when they have perfectly good oak barrels?

 

Only people I know of around here using stainless have been on a certain cider making course.

[Tim]

Ferment in the barrel and literally all of the flavour will be gone by the end.

[nfcider]

Adam,
If it's any help, I used a firm they have a local depot near me called
C P Nitro, their head office is in Cornwall (Tel 01566 775000),they
set me up with a CO2 cylinder and a line with a solenoid switch which
just opens the valve to replace the space with a blanket of CO2 as I
draw off from the tap on the barrel,the line works 3 barrels
independently, it's not a pressurised system.
Barry

On Sep 18, 7:38 pm, "Tim" <t...@marshwoodvalecider.com> wrote:
> No idea on cost, ask your local landlord who he uses, most cellarmen will do
> the job at a sensible rate if they use second hand gear.
>
> Tim
>
> From: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:cider-w...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of AdamD
> Sent: 18 September 2012 19:37
> To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Bulk storage 101
>
> Yes, this is the kind of advice I was hoping for. Do you mean that there is
> a device that automatically feeds enough CO2 to keep everything safe? What
> ball park kind of money are we talking? Does anyone use this with HPDE? I've
> got nothing against wood barrels by the way, just wandering..
>
> Also as a general point, would it be considered safe by people on here to
> mature in HDPE for as long as say a year?
>
> --
> Visit our website:http://www.ciderworkshop.com
>
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Cider Workshop"
> Google Group.
> By joining and posting to the Cider Workshop, you have agreed to abide by

> our rules, and principles. Please seehttp://www.ciderworkshop.com/resources_principles.html

[Devoto Gardens]

Adam -  could you elaborate on why the large bags from TPS rental systems, didn't work for you?   We are considering using bag-in-box this year for long term ( up to 12 months) bulk storage.

Thanks!

Hunter Wade

Devoto Orchards

Sebastopol, California