Free SO2 Post Fermentation

[cghoe...@gmail.com]

I may have missed it in one of the books or spreadsheet - can someone point me to a chart or graph for recommended free SO2 based on pH for post fermentation storage?

Thanks

Chris

[Andrew Lea]

Received wisdom for cider (at least in the UK) is that the level of free SO2 required post fermentation is independent of pH. That’s because it’s then acting mostly as an antioxidant, less as an antimicrobial.  So what it says eg in my book is that the target is to maintain 20 - 30 ppm free SO2 during bulk storage. 

However, I notice that much of the (non-UK) wine literature says you should aim to maintain 0.8 ppm of molecular SO2. To get at that they use the same pH dependency graphs which are normally used prior to fermentation. Those authors are obviously still thinking of it primarily as an antimicrobial. 

Your choice!

Andrew

Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

On 29 Oct 2021, at 19:02, cghoe...@gmail.com <cghoe...@gmail.com> wrote:

I may have missed it in one of the books or spreadsheet - can someone point me to a chart or graph for recommended free SO2 based on pH for post fermentation storage?

Thanks

Chris

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[cghoe...@gmail.com]

As a follow on question. To dose 57liters of cider with 5% solution of KMS if I've tested the cider and have 2ppm of free SO2?  I understand that KMS will bind to the cider and leave some free S02 behind but I'm not sure how much to add as a start.  What is the suggest amount of 5% to bring the free SO2 to between 20 and 30ppm?   And then how long to wait to test free SO2 again to see if I'm close to the desired free SO2?

Thanks

Chris

[Andrew Lea]

http://www.cider.org.uk/sulphite.html

Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

On 10 Nov 2021, at 22:01, cghoe...@gmail.com <cghoe...@gmail.com> wrote:

As a follow on question. To dose 57liters of cider with 5% solution of KMS if I've tested the cider and have 2ppm of free SO2?  I understand that KMS will bind to the cider and leave some free S02 behind but I'm not sure how much to add as a start.  What is the suggest amount of 5% to bring the free SO2 to between 20 and 30ppm?   And then how long to wait to test free SO2 again to see if I'm close to the desired free SO2?

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cider-workshop/06d39ade-e2ef-41b7-9b89-47a6819af130n%40googlegroups.com.

[Johan Strömberg]

One thing to keep in mind with post fermentation SO2 additions is that if you leave cider on lees (sur lie aging) it's possible that you don't need to add any or very small amount of SO2 (if you don't want to inhibit MLF) as lees have also antioxidant effects. I have made a couple of trials with keeping cider on full lees about 6 months post fermentation in 225l oak barrel and lowish temps without any SO2 addittion and cider is more reductive than oxidative after that so nowadays I won't add any amount of sulphites before racking / bottling straight from the barrel. I just keep topping barrel in every two weeks and that seems to do the job even in long storage period.

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[Chris Hoerichs]

Interesting.  What are you topping the barrel with?

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[Andrew Lea]

Yes I agree with that Johan, even though it is not the way I was taught years ago.  I find that yeast lees can be surprisingly reductive. My only caveat is that I only do it with wild yeast fermentations - with monocultured yeasts I think you run a higher risk of off flavours. That’s just my personal observation. And I do add SO2 before final bulk store or bottling once the lees has gone, to protect the cider for the long term. 

Andrew

——————————

Wittenham Hill Cider Page

www.cider.org.uk

On 11 Nov 2021, at 12:40, Johan Strömberg <whyno...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Johan Strömberg]

Chris,

Basically with bottled reserve cider from previous vintage (or current vintage depending if it has stopped fermenting in time), 225 l barrel will lose 20 - 30 liters of cider in year and that has to replace somehow to keep liquid level in top constantly and I prefer finished cider made from same apple varieties. That’s one of the most crucial thing when maturing cider in barrel.

-Johan

Andrew Lea <ci...@cider.org.uk> kirjoitti 11.11.2021 kello 15.23:

Yes I agree with that Johan, even though it is not the way I was taught years ago.  I find that yeast lees can be surprisingly reductive. My only caveat is that I only do it with wild yeast fermentations - with monocultured yeasts I think you run a higher risk of off flavours. That’s just my personal observation. And I do add SO2 before final bulk store or bottling once the lees has gone, to protect the cider for the long term. 

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cider-workshop/CA18EA6D-BC8F-4494-85D3-CCC85C93BB06%40cider.org.uk.

[Miguel Pereda]

Johan. Do you notice the increase in volatile acidity during this long ageing on lees?

Miguel A. Pereda

[Johan Strömberg]

Miguel,

I have never had a detectable amount of VA when working with barrels (and I actually would like to have some as a huge fan of Basque ciders) despite the fact that I keep cider at least 10 months on full lees but as I wrote I do keep barrels topped, pH is in 3.2 - 3.4 range and temps mainly between 5 and 15 so I still play quite a safe game. I once did one small test batch that I did leave 15 months on full lees and then I noticed increasing VA levels but container was only 15 l and glass so it was also highly reductive! 

-Johan

Miguel Pereda <map...@gmail.com> kirjoitti 11.11.2021 kello 22.56:

Johan. Do you notice the increase in volatile acidity during this long ageing on lees?

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[Miguel Pereda]

Johan, let me ask you another question: do you use tannin-rich apples in your ciders, perhaps to control the VA rise in the cider matured in barrels?

Best regards.

[Johan Strömberg]

Tannin levels vary quite much per vintage as I live in Finland and I just make cider with old local / Russian / Scandinavian varieties, crabs & wild seedlings whom also co-ferment in barrels (I don't blend after fermentation and I also bottle straight from the barrel) so there is some tannins from crabs & seedlings but I would say the level is noticeable but never very high. As I wrote before I think the most important thing to keep VA away is to top barrels frequently, taste(!), and keep barrels in lowish temps. I would also assume that low pH will help. Like Andrew I also use only natural / ambient yeasts so I don't know if it has something to do with good results I have had with long full lees maturing.

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