Maturing cider after racking

[Alex]

My apologies since this has not doubt been covered before, my search, on my phone, didn't turn up any relevant results. If anybody remembers a relevant thread please let me know.

After racking my trial batches I stored the fermented base cider in bag-in-boxes and in glass fermenters which I filled as much as I could and attempted to make airtight.

A couple got minor bacterial infections though. For my first commercial setup I wish to either mature the cider in IBCS or in large Smurfitt Kappa BIBs.

Would anybody have any advice as to how a similar infection could be avoided?

I'm concerned I couldn't see inside the IBCS and that might be worse. Is it easy to completely fill a Smurfitt Kappa BIB?

Which is best?

Any advice would be very welcome.

[Andrew Lea]

What are the symptoms of your "minor bacterial infections"?

Are you maintaining 30 ppm free SO2 during storage?

Andrew

Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

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[PHILIP ATKINSON]

Andrew, can you elaborate on this comment you made?

I don't get this primary / secondary distinction. Cider making like wine making goes straight through. Only beer brewers need to make a primary / secondary distinction as the sugar composition of the wort changes during fermentation. Its your choice if you want to start in one vessel and finish in another for logistical reasons, but it doesn't mean you have a primary and a secondary fermentation.

I'm wondering what is happening specifically in beer that is not happening in cider and what sugar composition changes occur. 

Cheers, Phil

[Andrew Lea]

On 21/09/2016 17:09, PHILIP ATKINSON wrote:
> Andrew, can you elaborate on this comment you made?
>

> Cider making like wine
> making goes straight through. Only beer brewers need to make a primary /
> secondary distinction as the sugar composition of the wort changes
> during fermentation.
>

> I'm wondering what is happening specifically in beer that is not
> happening in cider and what sugar composition changes occur.

The sugars in apple juice and grape juice are the simple monosaccharides
glucose and fructose, any sucrose being quickly 'inverted' to a mixture
of G & F. These are fully fermentable by all normal yeasts. [There is a
slight difference between 'glucophilic and 'fructophilic' yeast strains
but not enough to make any practical difference]. The sugar composition
does not markedly change during cider or wine fermentation in most cases.

Beer wort is very different. Because of its production from malt, it
contains some glucose, some maltose (a disaccharide) and rather a lot of
oligosaccharides such as maltotriose, maltotetrose and other higher
oligomers. All brewers yeasts can assimilate glucose, and most can
handle maltose though a little more slowly. They begin to struggle when
it comes to maltotriose and above, and it's at this point that
fermentation begins to slow down markedly. The distinction between
primary and secondary fermentation in beer wort is pretty much the point
at which all the glucose and most of the maltose has gone and the
maltose oligomers are all that is left, because this is something of a
discontinuity in the fermentation process.

Some yeasts are better at handling the oligosaccharides than others and
these are known as high attenuation yeasts. By contrast low attenuation
yeasts are really only adapted to handle glucose and maltose. However,
these concepts have no place in wine or cider making, nor does the
primary / secondary distinction, because all apple and grape sugars are
fully fermentable and the sugar composition does not change during
fermentation as it does in brewing wort.

Claude made the good point that often in cider there is a turbulent
initial phase and a quieter later phase. This is especially true when
dealing with unsulphited wild fermentations, since there is a
'succession' of yeast species. The initial fermentation is vigorously
conducted by apiculate yeasts, while the quieter phase is conducted by
Saccharomyces strains. I think this is why some people apply the terms
'primary' and 'secondary' to these two phases. But it's not the same
change in sugar composition and speed of assimilation that takes place
in beer brewing.

To further complicate things, some cidermakers and winemakers use the
word 'secondary' to refer to a controlled yeast fermentation in the
bottle (natural conditioning to get sparkle), and some cidermakers and
winemakers use the term 'secondary' to refer to the malo-lactic change
which is bacterial and does produce carbon dioxide although it has
nothing to do with yeast nor the assimilation of sugar.

That's why I think all these terms are best avoided in cidermaking. They
only lead to confusion.

I hope this helps.

Andrew

--
near Oxford, UK

[PHILIP ATKINSON]

Thank you, Andrew, that's a great explanation.

Phil

---

From: "Andrew Lea" <ci...@cider.org.uk>
To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, 21 September, 2016 10:56:49 AM
Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Maturing cider after racking

[Alex]

Hi Andrew,

Thanks for the response. The cider would expand on hot days and spill out the top, then on colder days there would be a head space and in a few vessels, a film would develop. Perhaps it was bacterial or perhaps it was a film yeast.

My test batches were in plastic fermenters from Wilkos or glass carboys with no taps and I was forever paranoid about opening them up to take samples. There were a few occasions where I would wipe off the film, spray some mild SO2 solution around the neck of the fermenter and top up the space with water. That would have been the time to test SO2 levels, but at that time I didn't have the necessary chemicals and equipment.

Best regards

Alex

[Andrew Lea]

So you had a film yeast problem, which was a function of the way you were managing your small scale storage. 

With larger vessels, proper seals or airlocks and a target value of 30 ppm free SO2 in the stored cider, your future problems should be minimal. 

Andrew 

Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

To post to this group, send email to cider-w...@googlegroups.com.

[eaglewolfff]

For what it's worth, this is how I do it, and I don't seem to have any problems. The juice goes into a stainless steel vat so that all the different varieties are blended together at the initial stage. I don't use any sulphites, but I usually chuck in a couple of sachets of cider yeast - I doubt they have much effect, since a sachet is meant for 5 gallons and the vat holds 150, I figure they might be a little addition to the wild yeast but I don't know (Andrew would know the answer to this). I cover the vat with a loose cover which keeps out flies but isn't airtight and leave it that way for about a week. Then, I transfer it into six-gallon fermentation buckets, each fitted with an airlock and a tap at the bottom, and that's it! The cider is drank or bottled from the buckets any time from Christmas onwards; all you have to do is crack the lid open while you're drawing from the tap to prevent blowback through the airlock. The cider throws a sediment at the bottom of the bucket which is just below the level of the tap and isn't a problem and it forms a film at the surface which also isn't a problem since it doesn't come near thectap till the bucket is practically empty.
The cider starts off at Christmas as a delicious, slightly cloudy, slightly fizzy, fruity brew and soon develops into a golden, crystal clear, still cider which improves right throughout the year and is at its best at Christmas - just as the new stuff is ready!

[Alex]

Great, thanks Andrew. 

By the time I came to bottle it, I had the necessary equipment to do the titration to determine SO2, which was 24ppm (free).  I'm imagining it doesn't matter too much which is best out of storing in IBCs or BIBs for maturation so long as it's airtight. 

Best regards

Alex