Cidery layout design advice

[Nepali Brewboy]

Hello and Cheers
Greetings from Himalaya . This group has been a great resource. We are planning to open a Cidery on our Apple orchard . I would really appreciate if any one can help me and suggestions the best layout sheds and design for Cidery . We have about 5000 sq ft . Want to build 100ftx 50 ft maximum . Looking for advice on best and optimum design and lay out ideas for our Cidery with tasting room. Any suggestions will be highly appreciated. My email : chh...@gmail.com

[Frantisek Algoldor Apfelbeck]

Hi Nepali Brewboy,
I wonder what are your conditions and what are your aims concerning cider which you would like to make?

When is the harvest season, do you have early or late varieties, manual harvest or mechanical? What are the temperatures like? Do you plan fermentation by native yeast on fruit or pure strains? Do you aim for keeving/défécation and after that fermentation under variable conditions or do you plan to keep temperature at set level? Do you want to ferment your cider completely to still or you do prise de mousse naturelle or do you plan for pasteurization and gasification? Bottling to 750 ml or other format of bottles (which demands plan for space for storage of empty ones and later on development of the bottled ones)?

If you post some of the info aboveit would be more easy to specify for others what would be the best options for you.

Best of luck,

Frantisek

[Nepali Brewboy]

Download full resolution images

Available until Feb 27, 2020

Greetings from Himalaya . 

Please allow us into introduce ourselves. My name is Chuck Ghale , I was in Dallas for the last 20 years and now moved back to Kathmandu Nepal. I have been a fan of Craft Beers and Ciders when I was Dallas and has some experience in  Brewing . Our family has an Apple Orchard here in Nepal under Agro Manang .  We have the largest Apple Farming project in Nepal. Bhratang Apple Farm house and currently has about 70000 trees of Apple viz .1) Golden Delicious  2) FUJI 3) Gala apples. We are starting another farming location for additional 40000 plantation this year. 

We are now looking to set up a Farm Based Cidery with Agro-tourism Model. We would like to make Hard Ciders and Sparkling Apple Cider ( Similar to Marteneli Sparkling CIDER FROM USA ). 

We would like to start this plant with 100000 Kg of Apple, AROUND 80000 LITERS OF JUICE AFTER BEING PRESSED.  

1) HARVEST IS MANJUALLY

2) ATTACHED HERE THE TEMPERATURE  : Manang  lies at 3517 m above sea lavel , the clim ate here is mild and generally  warm and temperate the summer have good deal of rain fall, According to Kopek and Geiger the climate is classified as Cwb, Average Annual temperature is 6.5 degrees. With average rainfall of 400mm . Through out the year temperature might vary by 12.7 Degtree

3)We plan fermentation by pure Yeats strains

4) we would like to completely ferment and carbonate it 

5) wee would like to bottle in 750 ml 

6) our available space is about 7000 sq feet, We would like to have full juice press, fermentation, bottling and store area , with other administration. Space needed,  

 We would be highly appreciated you might be able to supply the equipment needed for the project and your expertise on equipment that are needed for the Project.

Thanking you in advance , and your response  will be  highly appreciated. Looking forward to hear from your end with quotation for equipment. 

Best regards

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[Josh Denbeaux]

Chuck,

I’ve got no helpful advice for you as I am just a noob here. 

I just wanted to pop in n here and tell you that your patch is absolutely gorgeous. And to thank you for sharing. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 28, 2020, at 10:40 AM, Nepali Brewboy <chh...@gmail.com> wrote:



Download full resolution images

Available until Feb 27, 2020

Greetings from Himalaya . 

Please allow us into introduce ourselves. My name is Chuck Ghale , I was in Dallas for the last 20 years and now moved back to Kathmandu Nepal. I have been a fan of Craft Beers and Ciders when I was Dallas and has some experience in  Brewing . Our family has an Apple Orchard here in Nepal under Agro Manang .  We have the largest Apple Farming project in Nepal. Bhratang Apple Farm house and currently has about 70000 trees of Apple viz .1) Golden Delicious  2) FUJI 3) Gala apples. We are starting another farming location for additional 40000 plantation this year. 

We are now looking to set up a Farm Based Cidery with Agro-tourism Model. We would like to make Hard Ciders and Sparkling Apple Cider ( Similar to Marteneli Sparkling CIDER FROM USA ). 

We would like to start this plant with 100000 Kg of Apple, AROUND 80000 LITERS OF JUICE AFTER BEING PRESSED.  

1) HARVEST IS MANJUALLY

2) ATTACHED HERE THE TEMPERATURE  : Manang  lies at 3517 m above sea lavel , the clim ate here is mild and generally  warm and temperate the summer have good deal of rain fall, According to Kopek and Geiger the climate is classified as Cwb, Average Annual temperature is 6.5 degrees. With average rainfall of 400mm . Through out the year temperature might vary by 12.7 Degtree

3)We plan fermentation by pure Yeats strains

4) we would like to completely ferment and carbonate it 

5) wee would like to bottle in 750 ml 

6) our available space is about 7000 sq feet, We would like to have full juice press, fermentation, bottling and store area , with other administration. Space needed,  

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[Remo Trovato]

The space looks beautiful.

This is a large undertaking and requires a lot of time and resources. It needs to be planed carefully and coordinated with your growing season to get the most efficiency out of your resources.
We have been setting up cideries for a while now and can deliver full systems from press to pumps, filters, tanks to filling line.
We can also pull in consultants to help you with cider making etc.
As mentioned, it will take up to a year or more to get this off the ground.
The first thing to do would be to set a project planning budget so you (or someone) can dedicate the required time to this undertaking.
You can contact me at ser...@juicingsystems.com of you have questions.

Remo

[Nepali Brewboy]

Thank you all for a response , really Appreciate

[Nepali Brewboy]

This is Small Video Clip of our Apple Orchard

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6w52aAjJvQ&t=52s

On Tuesday, January 28, 2020 at 1:39:37 PM UTC+5:45, Nepali Brewboy wrote:

[Wayne Bush]

Chuck, what an amazing project, and what a beautiful location.  You are a lucky man.  You are planning to produce a lot of cider and sparkling apple juice.  How much of it can you sell locally, and how much do you plan to sell downstream--in Kathmandu or elsewhere in Nepal?  Are you thinking of selling it in bottles, cans, or some other form of packaging?  How big is the demand for cider in Nepal?  My thinking is that it might be easier/cheaper for you to transport either the apples, or just the pressed juice out of your location than the finished product, and actually setting up your cider production and packaging closer to where it is going to be consumed.  Bringing all that packaging and equipment to your rather remote location might add a lot to your investment and maintenance costs and to your cost of producing the products.  You might also want to consider whether you can outsource the bottling/canning aspect in the initial phase so that you only need to equip for the pressing and fermenting.  It sounds like you might have a lot of fruit to press faster than you may be able to establish a complete new cidery.  I think this is one of the most unusual and interesting cider projects (or any kind of agricultural project) that I've heard about in a long time.  

[Nepali Brewboy]

Please do check your email. I have sent email and details .Thanks

[Nepali Brewboy]

Hello ! Wayne 

Thanks for your advise and suggestion, really appreciate your input . Yes its definitely Unusual project to be starting in one of the most Remote Mountainous region. We started our farm back in 2014, Most apples varieties are high density apples varieties and the market for dessert apples is huge in Nepal. Domestic apples can fulfill only about 10-15 % of the total demands rest are being imported from India and China. 

We are basically from the region and Nepal Government is encouraging for the development of Domestic project especially based in Agriculture sector. In fact no income Taxes for 10 years and only 50% taxes there after and excise duty are also 80% less compare top the one being imported. Government also has great deals of Grants and Subsidize available for similar project . In fact I that's my home town even though we are now based in Kathmandu . I have attached here some photos of the area. Its a beautiful town and very touristic area for Trekker, Hikers and Mountaineers and there is great in flow of tourist from all over the world. 

No such Project is in the area currently and we will be the First doing this project. We do already have a Resort with full Dinning and Bar with coffee shop and bakery at the site. Our plan is to set up Cidery /Winery/Distillery at site creating one of kind Destination Spots in the area. 

As of now there are no Cidery Project in Nepal . In terms of Cider market, Only Somersby cider is in the market produced by Carlberg Group in Nepal. Its still a very virgin market for Nepal , No Sparkling cider in the market , Demand for Wine and Sparkling ciders are on the rise . I kn ow its a challenging project but prospects are great . Pray for us 

[jitd...@aol.com]

These are interesting considerations.  

Generally speaking you should hold stock close to the user from the point of view of maximising your customer service level.  

On the other hand it is a generally accepted rule of thumb that the total volume of stock in a system is proportional to the number of locations in which stock is located therefore to minimise the total stock (and the "dead" capital it represents) stock should be centralised in as few locations as possible.  

Finished cider and juice occupies much less weight and volume than raw apples which would tend to suggest that it would be more economical to transport finished product any long distance to market than raw material fir processing close to the market.  Perhaps transport costs of finished product are disproportionately higher for finished product especially when the weight of necessary packaging is factored in.  

Most of these questions can be settled with some comparatively simple spreadsheet modelling.  

However there is an important factor, often missed, which evades the spreadsheet and time and again the management efficiency men can't compute.  This factor is the commitment of the workforce to product quality, and workforce stability.  When the pressers & bottlers are in close contact or even part of the same team as the growers and pickers they are more likely to feel commitment to and pride in the product, you are also likely to benefit from lower staff turnover.  If your processing and bottling is far away from the production site neither the fruit producers nor the cider makers will feel the same dedication to the product, indeed the production plant might decide to take on other sources of fruit and juices to cover slack periods which will end up diluting your brand.  

Much to consider.  

Good luck

JD

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[Wayne Bush]

JD--all valid points.  I was thinking about the extremely remote location of the orchards in suggesting establishing the cidery closer to market.  My bottle supplier won't even bring a pallet of bottles over the cobbles in the courtyard in case they fall over, so I could imagine some difficulty and cost in getting supplies up to the mountain location, only to take them down again to sell in the population centers.  Plus I can imagine a long lead time for the vigo repairman to reach you up there when the capper is jammed.   I'd be tempted to go for a "demo" type of cidery in the mountains to sell to the hikers, climbers and locals.  But I admit that might not be ambitious enough.  In any event, given the beauty of the location, I'm sure there will be no shortage of volunteers to help with the pressing!

JD

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[Wayne Bush]

PS great to hear about a government that is trying to encourage and support producers!  I think most cider-makers' interactions with government authorities are probably less encouraging.

[Richard Torrens (lists)]

FWIW, I would start by drawing up a flowchart. Consider every step in the
process and how they interact. You can then decide how much space you need
for each stage, and how to put them on the ground.

Something like the attached, but with more detail. Good luck

--
Richard Torrens, Burwell, Cambs, UK.

[Nepali Brewboy]

Thank you

[Eric Tyira]

Hi Brewboy

I sent you an email off list. Did you receive it?  If not, check your spam folder. 

Eric

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[Nepali Brewboy]

Thanks to every one for all your inputs and suggestion .

On Sunday, February 2, 2020 at 5:50:21 PM UTC+5:45, Eric Tyira wrote:

Hi Brewboy

I sent you an email off list. Did you receive it?  If not, check your spam folder. 

Eric

On Feb 1, 2020, at 10:17 PM, Nepali Brewboy <chh...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thank you

On Saturday, February 1, 2020 at 3:03:13 PM UTC+5:45, Richard Torrens (lists) wrote:

FWIW, I would start by drawing up a flowchart. Consider every step in the
process and how they interact. You can then decide how much space you need
for each stage, and how to put them on the ground.

Something like the attached, but with more detail. Good luck

--
Richard Torrens, Burwell, Cambs, UK.

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[Nepali Brewboy]

HELLO AGAIN, 

This is the initial layout for our upcoming project, we would like to start with at least 100K liters but can be upgraded to 400K in near future. Our Land space allocated for the site is about 

200 ft in length and width is 60 feet. would really appreciate some suggestion and advice on the flow and most effective process for workflow. 

Also recommendation on Fermenter size, we were thinking of doing 10000liters and 500 liters fermenters. Any advice and suggestions will be highly appreciated 

[Eric Tyira]

Hey Brewboy.

I'll expand on Claude's comments.  Let's say you have a 20,000 liter tank that's full enough.  You'll need to rack this into another 20,000 liter tank to get it off the initial lees.  Then this will probably be racked into (2) 10,000 liter tanks for aging.  Then one of these may go into a 5,000 liter tank for blending, flavoring, etc.  Once the first racking is done, you bring in the next batch of raw juice of 20,000 liter and start the process over.  So you see the benefit of having tanks being multiples of others.

On your layout I don't see a CIP.

Another thing to consider is how will all the juice be packaged?  Bottles?  Cans?  Kegs?  Combinations?  I think you are woefully short on packaged storage space.  For example, your 20,000 liter tank is 5,283 gallons.  Half kegs are 15.5 gallons.  That's 340 kegs.  You can store about (6) half kegs max per skid.  That's 56 skids of kegs.  And that's just one 20,000 liter tank, so perhaps one flavor run.  You'll probably have at least 2-4 lines to start.  I don't see anywhere you can store 150-200 kegs.

You'll also need a place to store the empty kegs (assuming you'll use kegs at all) until it's time to do a heg cleaning run.  You aren't going to be cleaning them one per run, so figure some 300 ft2 just for empty/dirty kegs stacked two high.

Don't forget your floor drains.

Do you really need three separate offices plus a meeting room?  I would suggest an open office space or two max.  You'll want to keep sales and those that talk on the phone all day in their own office so it doesn't bother the deep thinkers.  Private time can be held in the meeting room.  How often will you have meetings?  Is this a wasted space being empty most of the time?  Perhaps you can make the break room the meeting room so it serves double duty.

If you are bottling and or canning, you'll need a place to keep both the empty cans/bottles and the full ones.

5,283 / 0.198129 = 26,664 750 ml bottles.

26,664 / 12 = 2,222 cases.

Do you have space for this many cases of finished product per line?  I think you need to make a LOT of space for finished product..

There are plenty more things to think about.

Eric

 

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[Wayne Bush]

Maybe I can't open all of the pages, but I see only tanks, offices, limited storage and a partial packaging line on the drawing.  Is the apple washing, pulping, pressing, etc., all happening somewhere else?  Have you planned for a blending tank?  Filtration?  Pasteurization? Good luck with such an ambitious project!