Cider Apple Tree Variety Selection

[John Roche]

Hello,
I wish to plant a mix of cider apple trees, quantity 200.
Location:- limerick, Ireland
Well drained fertile limestone based soil.

I prefer M26 rootstock.

My basic checking reveals that variety selection is complex and key.

I seek advice on variety selection please.
Also where I can source the trees.

Thanks for any advice 

John Roche 

[Dave Fulton]

Hey John,

One cider specialist in your neck of the woods with a sizeable cider inventory is https://heritagefruittreenursery.com/product-category/apples/cider/. They also graft on M26 by the looks of things. 

As far as what to to grow - depends on what you are looking to do. I'd go for a mix of sweets, sharps, bittersweets and bittersharps and with the number of trees you are looking to grow, i'd pick a number to cover early (Sept) to late (Nov) harvesting - grow a bunch for a few years and find what works best on your soils and for your taste in cider. I've got 40 odd varieties in a new orchard that i'm essentially evaluating (not all of them fruiting as yet). If you end up not liking a variety for any reason, you can top work them over to another variety, but benefit from the meantime from the rootsystem of the M26s getting established. Feels like you are starting from scratch when you do that initially, but very gratifying when that new graft grows really quickly to fill in the space, almost as much as the variety you weren't a fan oiff would have added in that growing season.

Good luck! 

DF

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[John Roche]

Dave,

Thanks for the information.

I own an old rectory in west Limerick, and have a mix of young and old apple trees, 85 in all.

As written I wish to plant more.

Thanks again and all the best

john 

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[Michael]

Can I ask why you prefer M26?

Do you have a professional irrigation setup plus trellis support for them?

If not, do you expect the weather during the next decades to always provide reliable rainfall to support dwarfing rootstocks?

[John Roche]

Dave,

Another question comes to mind !

I have made cider, maximum 200 lites in a go for one year.

I simply combined all apples and pressed as a batch.

Assuming I find a suitable mix of varieties, as they ripen from September to late November, are the early varieties stored and mixed with the late apples, pressed as one batch, or what typically is recommended?

Thanks again!

john 

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[John Roche]

Michael,

M26 based on local advice re size.

Open to suggestions.

No I don’t have a professional irrigation setup and intend to simply stake support while young.

My knowledge in this area is limited.

In my search for advice and help cider workshop was recommended.

I’m happy to pay a consultancy fee should there be any individual interested.

john 

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[Dave Fulton]

Hey John,

The different date ranges are largely concerned with the challenge of picking or collecting the apples. If you have a small orchard and the trees are close together & you  have the labor to collect them all at once then you don't need to worry so much about seasons of maturity. I grow a similar number of trees but freestanding on larger rootstocks (MM111, G890)  with 12' spacing, so having them all mature at the same time would be a nightmare for me, particularly as i get into my late 50s. Early season apples don't keep, so you'd also have to mill in stages as well as pick, you won't be able to store an August apple like a  Morgan's Sweet, for example, until the Porters Perfection are ready to come off the trees in late November. unless you have a commercial chiller/CA handy. If that sounds like too much of a pain, simplify your choices a bit and go for a smaller set of varieties that are good cross pollinators and mature at around the same time.

To Michael's comment about changing climate patterns and rootstock, you probably wouldn't want a weak tree like Dabinett on your M26s, as it will grow a smaller tree as a variety without a lot of vigor but also needs a lot of winter chill to set a good crop, and a maritime climate like yours might not give that a few years down the road. Honestly, your best bet is a talk with the nursery. Your nursery will set you straight on what will work well for your soil, rootstock etc.

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[John Roche]

Thanks Gents 

john 

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[Michael]

De nada :)

I wouldn't worry too much about chill hours; those will be fine anywhere in northern Europe.

If you're talking to a local nursery, be aware that they'll probably recommend what they can sell you...

If what they have are MM106 or MM116, please look elsewhere. Storms will not be decreasing in velocity, and these rootstocks have a tendency to lean.

I'd say MM111 is probably the best mainstream rootstock you can find these days. And you don't necessarily have to plant them as free-standing large trees.

A hedge of these trees will allow you to combine the advantages of intensive planting and strong rootstock.

If the varieties aren't available on 111s, just graft them; it's easy. (I grafted 70 trees without any prior practice, and they all took.)

[John Roche]

Thanks again.

So now I’ve good direction re rootstock.

Next is variety selection!!?!?! 

Plus availability 

Again

Go well and good luck with your ventures and life !!

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[Andrew Lea]

If you are looking for consultancy in your part of the world, maybe worth contacting Con Traas who used to be an active contributor to this list. He is an Irish apple grower who also understands cider. He may know someone relevant to your needs. https://www.theapplefarm.com/

Andrew 

Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

On 15 Nov 2021, at 08:53, John Roche <roch...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[John Roche]

Andrew,

Thank you.

I’ve spoken to Con.

In my relative ignorance I considered that I would be advised/provided with a “shopping list” of ~ 5 varieties to source/plant. Tried and trusted = simple.

This is not the case, really it’s more complex.

With the information provided from this workshop I’ll go shopping, to determine what’s available and make a call.

Thanks all

john 

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[Andrew Lea]

The primary thing is to balance your varieties at least between (bitter)sharps and bittersweets so you get a balanced blend. Also the disease resistance and growth habits of cider trees in the west of Ireland may be different from places further east. So, yes it is a lot more complex than just picking 5 well known varieties. Have you looked in my book or on my website for general guidance on cider apple varieties?

As regards your question about balancing varieties wrt cropping times, early cider varieties simply do not store. So it’s best to start fermenting them on their own and then adding to the ferment with juice from more mainstream varieties, or blending the finished ciders.

Andrew

Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

On 15 Nov 2021, at 13:14, John Roche <roch...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Michael]

Or just choose some quality early varieties (of which there are a few) and make cider with them, without waiting for the later ones :)
If you feel like you're rushing things, remember:
You can always concentrate on getting all the rootstocks into the ground, let them grow for a year and then graft them.
You won't loose much because can then take your time to think things through (variety selection is a broad topic)
while your trees take root. Then graft them high, and you'll soon have some nice trees.
And always remember:
Ireland is awash with Dabinett and Michelin.
We who only have 200 trees have to look for our niche.

[Bryan Hart]

It's also worth checking the flowering times are similar to make sure blossoms are co-ordinated and avoid any late frost nipping the buds although being in Limerick is probably OK for spring frosts.

Bryan

[John Roche]

Any specific varieties you recommend other than Davinett and Michelin  ?

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[Michael]

I've planted as many different varieties as I could, even the more challenging ones.

Would you be willing to do the same?

Only a few have cropped so far, so my evaluation would right now be based on initial orchard performance,

tasting other makers' ciders and reputation of the varieties.

A lot depends on your goals:

Do you have external sources of dual purpose/dessert apples to blend in?

Do you want to have sellable product as soon as possible?

Are you willing to accept strong biennialism of interesting varieties over reliable mainstream ones?

How will the orchard be managed; how will the apples be harvested; how will they be pressed?

[John Roche]

See replies below 

On Mon 15 Nov 2021 at 20:19, Michael <cancelm...@gmail.com> wrote:

I've planted as many different varieties as I could, even the more challenging ones.

Would you be willing to do the same?

yes

Only a few have cropped so far, so my evaluation would right now be based on initial orchard performance,

tasting other makers' ciders and reputation of the varieties.

A lot depends on your goals:

Do you have external sources of dual purpose/dessert apples to blend in?

I have 80 trees of mixed varieties eaters/cookers mostly 7 years old, local gent collected cuttings from old period property orchards and grafted onto M26 rootstock 

I have one great old crab apple tree, which is a wonderful cropper 

Do you want to have sellable product as soon as possible?

no

Are you willing to accept strong biennialism of interesting varieties over reliable mainstream ones?

would like to do something different 

How will the orchard be managed; how will the apples be harvested; how will they be pressed?

One man show, me

i have currently 75 litres fermenting.

I used a small pulper and manual press, I’ve added nothing and it’s happily fermenting from sp 1.045

Manual picking and will invest in more kit

I’ve spoken to a local nursery this evening and asked for a list of what he has/what he recommends 

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[Michael]

Very good; let us know which varieties and rootstocks he recommends.