headache after cider, methanol to blame?

[Leon K]

Hi all,

I am pretty sure I am getting a headache the next day after drinking some of my recent cider.

1-2 glasses, not too much. I can't recall the ABV or SG right now, but it's not very strong. The apples were feral, medium sweet and the cider stopped fermenting at SG 1.008, I think... probably due to old trees and low nutrients in the fruit. I added a bit of sulphites in the beginning, wine yeast and nothing else.

I also read elsewhere that applies produce more (than other fruit or grain?) methanol during fermentation, due to pectin and may be some other reasons...

Any comments?

[Martin Thoburn]

I've had similar experiences as well with my batch from last year.  I'm new to fermenting cider, so I don't have many batches to compare it too.  I don't recall these headaches after drinking lots of cider at the bar.  The apples I used were form high yield commercial orchards, so fermentation was very rapid, but aged 6-10 months.  No sulfites, in my batch.

[Dhruv Jain]

This thread maybe of interest! - https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/cider-workshop/E0L9AaJ-1CY

The research paper (link in the above thread) talks about different factors that affect methanol production in fruit wines used in the production of eau de vie. 

[Wes Cherry]

It could be biogenic amines (histamine) caused by spontaneous wild malolactic acid bacteria fermentation.      

http://www.scottlab.com/uploads/documents/BiogenicAmines.pdf

Ironically, less or no sulfites can lead to more headache inducing cider despite the common misperception that sulfites are to blame for headaches!

-'//es Cherry

Dragon's Head Cider

Vashon Island, Wa US

www.dragonsheadcider.com

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[Andrew Lea]

I'm so glad you pointed that out Wes!

Methanol and SO2 are often uncritically and simplistically blamed as the hangover culprits when there could be many more subtle causes. There are a number of published studies now on biogenic amines in ciders eg http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17186671 is just one although none of them directly explore the effect on physiology since that is very complex to study. But the issue of biogenic amines on headaches esp in relationship to cheese and red wines has been around for many years. 

There is also the whole area of the higher alcohols (aka fusel oils) to consider which result from complex relationships in yeast metabolism and amino acid breakdown. These alcohols are more toxic than ethanol or methanol although present at lower levels. Ciders have always been said to be higher in phenylethanol than other alcoholic beverages although I haven't seen any good modern data. What we do now know is that some of these components can come from glycosidically bound precursors in the actual fruit as well as synthesis by yeast. So there can be several routes by which they arise. 

These are complex areas which are poorly understood. Best not to jump to conclusions but just to accept that all alcoholic beverages are toxic to a degree ;-)  We cannot pretend otherwise. 

Andrew

Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

[Leon K]

Thank you all for your replies. I knew I'd get better info here, than the usual "it's the sugar, honey!" mumbo-jumbo.

I will study the referenced materials and might come back with more questions, but in a mean time - is there any measures one could take to prevent producing such (headachy) cider?

[Andrew Lea]

Sadly, slow nutrient-poor fermentations probably don't help the fusel oil issue, even though many of us welcome them for other reasons. And as Wes and the reference I cited pointed out, you need to keep your LAB under control by use of SO2. 

Anecdotally, the worst hangovers I've had from my own ciders have been from very slow keeved fermentations followed by noticeable LAB activity. My more commercial style ciders with higher usage of SO2 during storage don't seem to be so bad, even when using wild yeast for fermentation. 

If I had to stick my neck out I'd say your best bet is probably to control your wild lactic acid bacteria with adequate SO2 on storage. That squares with the published data on biogenic amines. However, I stress I'm unaware of any formal studies of this issue in ciders. Even in red wines, it's been notoriously difficult to get good data. 

Andrew 

Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

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[Leon K]

thanks a lot, this is very helpful

[Wes Cherry]

And if one wants malolactic character, using a commercial strain will likely lead to less biogenic amine production.   Unfortunately you may not get as much character from the ml ferment.

You can choose strains with high diacetyl production for butterscotch notes.   I have one in the fridge I'm going to try when it gets a bit warmer.

-'//es Cherry

Dragon's Head Cider

Vashon Island, Wa US

www.dragonsheadcider.com

[Trevor FitzJohn]

Andrew. Can you please inform us practically of  doses of SO2 for bulk storage.? I leave mine in the 200L barrels till ready. Cheers Trevor

Sent from my iPhone

[Andrew Lea]

On 05/04/2016 03:09, Wes Cherry wrote:
> And if one wants malolactic character, using a commercial strain will
> likely lead to less biogenic amine production. Unfortunately you may
> not get as much character from the ml ferment.

Yes most of the commercial strains are chosen from Oenococcus oeni,
which seems to produce less biogenic amines than wild strains of other
species of LAB such as Lactobacilli, Pediococcus etc On the other hand
the wild strains may be more characterful in flavour as Wes says.

On 05/04/2016 04:31, Trevor FitzJohn wrote:
>> Andrew. Can you please inform us practically of doses of SO2 for bulk
>> storage.?

Standard advice from any New World wine-making textbook is to maintain
ca 20 - 30 ppm free SO2 in white wines during bulk storage. This is for
both antimicrobial and antioxidant purposes. The same regime is
appropriate for cider. (Some people relate this to pH and recommend 0.8
ppm molecular SO2, which is another way of looking at it but gets you
into rather high levels of SO2 at higher pH).

I previously mentioned fusel oils (higher alcohols) as possible
additional contributors to cider hangovers (in addition to biogenic
amines). Anyone interested in the impact of various factors on fusel
oil production in ciders (though not in the specific context of their
health impacts) might like to look at p 486 onwards of this review
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/j.2050-0416.1972.tb03485.x/epdf
It is nearly 45 years old but still contains a pretty good summary of
what is known on the topic (apart from much else). In particular it is
worth noting that low N and high solids content in the juice both tend
to increase fusel oil production during yeast fermentation (other things
being equal). If nothing else it demonstrates how complex the situation is.

Andrew

--
near Oxford, UK

[William Grote]

What temperature are you fermenting at?

If you are much above 70F you are going to get an increase in fusel alcohols which will render your head jello in the morning.  My first few attempts (following bad homebrew advice) were made in mid-summer and the ambient temps were 75F and I have never been as incapacitated as I was the next day after too much indulgence.  There may be other factors here, but this was what caused mine. 

On Saturday, April 2, 2016 at 3:46:00 PM UTC-4, Leon K wrote:

[Leon K]

This one was fermented pretty low - around 16-17 C

IIRC fusel alc increases around low 20-s and is pretty low  with high 20-s and into 30-s, not that anyone would ferment a cider at those temps.

I'd like to thank everyone for providing replies and food for thought, this is quality info, thanks all.