Use of farm building for cider making

[Phil Turner]

This was discussed a few years ago here. But I'm wondering if anyone can shed further light on this hypothetical situation.

If a cider maker rents a farm building from the apple farmer who supplies the bulk of the fruit, is he then liable to pay business rates? Or would the cider activity be considered incidental to the main farming activity and therefore be zero rated.

Also, does the scale of the cider operation affect this?

I'd be grateful for any advice,

Phil

[skidbro...@tiscali.co.uk]

Hi Phil 

If the cider business was judged not to be agricultural and a separate entity to the farm then you would probably need planning for change of use and to register for business rates. However, with small business rate relief there would almost certainly be no rate payable. Also, if you stayed below the 7000 litre exemption for excise duty, it would be a brave local authority that deemed you not to be an agricultural business thereby avoiding planning and the consequent building regs..

Alot depends on the local authority and even which individual officer you deal with, whether your face fits and how his/her private life is going at the time. You might be best to keep your head down until you are noticed or reach a scale where disclosure becomes advisable.

Either way, make sure that you are registered with HMRC (excise)  as a producer before you start.

Good luck

Guy 

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[Raglan Cider Mill]

My experience is that they are pretty tight on the agricultural tie now.  They may ask  you to demonstrate that the fruit is coming from that holding.  They may also look into the relationship between the farmer & the cider maker.  Someone who rents a building and buys the fruit commercially is not likely to be covered as they are not part of the agricultural business in person.  That said, as Guy pointed out, whilst relief is 100% for small businesses there will be no rates to pay anyway.

Sally

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[David Jordan]

this is very interesting..thank you

[MikeB...@aol.com]

Hi Phil 

>If the cider business was judged not to be agricultural and a separate entity to the farm then you would probably need planning for change of use and to register for business rates.<

 

Change of use of this sort is since May last year a 'permitted development' - you don't need planning permission, though you do need to check with your planners ...  I'm not sure how that works in real life. 

 

Take a look at this http://www.carterjonas.co.uk/~/media/Publications/carter-jonas-permitteddevelopment-rights-agricultural-buildings.ashx,  or search a string from the outlines below to get yourself up to date.

 

 

Mike

 

 

 

What are the new Permitted Development Rights (PDRs) all about and how do they affect me?

 

Changes to the PDRs came into force on 30 May 2013 and allow the change of use of small farm buildings in England without formal approval.

 

The changes apply to agricultural buildings with a floor space of up to 500sq m, which were in sole agricultural use as of 3 July 2013.

 

They can be changed to an alternative use without the need for detailed planning permission for that change of use.

 

Any building converted under the new rules after this date must have been in agricultural use for a minimum of 10 years to be eligible.

 

Note that the PDRs apply only to change of use - changes which physically alter the building may still need building consent or planning permission.

 

Also, for some changes of use to buildings larger than 150sq m, the local planning authority (LPA) will need to refer proposals to statutory consultees such as the Highways Authority and or the local Environmental Health Department.

 

Do the new Permitted Development Rights apply to all agricultural buildings up to 500sq m?

 

No. A change of use cannot be made if the agricultural building is listed, a scheduled ancient monument or part of a safety hazard area.

[Rupert Best]

I seem to remember that there was a case some years ago, possibly in Kent, in which the judgement (or observation by the judge) was made that cidermaking was an integral part of a farmer's agricultural business and that a cider house was therefore an agricultural building, with all the building rights associated with that status that existed at the time.

 

I saw it written down in an article somewhere ( 10-15 years ago and it was historical then) but I regret I cannot recollect any more detail than that.

 

Rupert Best

 

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: MikeBispham via Cider Workshop

To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 7:57 AM

Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Use of farm building for cider making

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[MikeB...@aol.com]

If it is part of the farm (adding value to farm raised produce) that would be fine, as long as no nuisance will be caused, there are no access problems, no environmental issues (bats in the roof etc).  It has to be part of the same 'farm unit'.  That way you wouldn't have to pay business rates, as its simply a continuation of agriculture.

 

Otherwise the the new PDRs should smooth the way to change of use, but you'll have to pay business rates. .

 

Mike

 

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[skidbro...@tiscali.co.uk]

As I have already pointed out, it is very unlikely that any business rates would be payable because of small business rate relief. If the business is big enough to be paying full rates it would suggest that they would be affordable.

Cheers

Guy 

[MikeB...@aol.com]

That's true Guy, but it might be worth bearing in mind there's no guarentee it will remain so.  Now farmers not paying rates, that's solid.

 

Mike

 

 

 

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[furneaux81]

You may wish to google "millington vs Secretary of State", this relates to a vineyard owner who was making wine.

Lord Justice Mantell summed up the decision with one paragraph,

" I agree. For generations, in Somerset and elsewhere they have been making cider on the farm.
To suggest that it is not a farming activity or ancillary to the growing of apples would be an affront to common sense. The Secretary of State accepts that wine making should not receive any different treatment. No doubt he will bear that in mind."

However, your case may be different as Millington was growing and processing grapes on his own land as opposed to a rented barn on a farm