Perry pear fermentation

[michael]

I am still waiting patiently for my perry pear juice to start
fermenting.I pressed on September 15th and added 50ppm extra sulphite
on to the amount recommended in Andrew's table for a pH of
3.8.Interestingly a batch started at the same time but containing 30%
cider apple juice,and treated in the same way has just started
(suddenly)to have a good and developing positive pressure.I remember
Andrew saying wait for two-four weeks,but that seems a very long time
of anxiety before deciding whether to pitch in some commercial yeast.
It is well known,I think,that the yeast responsible for the full
fermentation of cider/perry (without adding cultured yeast)comes from
the wine press,racks,etc,rather than the apple skins or pulp.
I clean my racks by soaking them in a Milton sterilising solution,but
wash my press only with water.So,since I press both cider apples and
perry pears on this press,it is not clear which yeast persists on my
press-does it matter?
I have a similar question with another smaller(basket) press which I
use to press red and white grapes.If again,I hope to use a natural
yeast,which one persists on the press?Can I only be sure that I use a
yeast appropiate to red or white wine if I use a cultured yeast.
Michael

[Andrew Lea]

michael wrote:
> I am still waiting patiently for my perry pear juice to start
> fermenting.I pressed on September 15th and added 50ppm extra sulphite
> on to the amount recommended in Andrew's table for a pH of
> 3.8.Interestingly a batch started at the same time but containing 30%
> cider apple juice,and treated in the same way has just started
> (suddenly)to have a good and developing positive pressure.

Michael, if you really cannot abide to wait, take some of the active
fermenting sample and add it as an inoculum to the one which hasn't
started yet!

Andrew

--
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
http://www.cider.org.uk

[Dries Muylaert]

Pear pulp should be allowed to stand 24 hours before pressing. Gives the tannin a chance to break down by contact with oxygen. Adding sulfite the pulp is however necessary. If no rest has been allowed, the tannin can precipitate in the juice taking high levels of natural yeast with it. Hence retarded fermentation of a juice that by nature is already poor on nutrients. Main risk is that lactic fermentation creeps in, not wanted at all as pears are already low on acid and that acid is for a substantial part made of citric acid. Lactic fermentation can turn that citric acid in acetic acid. Not pleasant at all as pear cider reveals defaults harder than other ciders. Pear cider should therefore as a rule be sulfited (what's the correct English expression btw.) thoroughly. Especially if from eating pears, not perry pears.

The combination of low nutrients, high sulfite and the tannin effect makes wild fermentation of pear juice a risky business. Once fermentation gets started a lot of risks are over. So there is no shame in adding yeast nutrients and using a yeast culture.

 

[michael]

I normally leave my pear pulp for 24 hrs before pressing.However,the
pulp is usually left in 30 litre tubs and only the top few inches is
in contact with air.Some of my pears(e.g.Winnals Longdon) is
particularly juicy,so the pear pulp becomes liquid a few inches into
the pulp.I had this discussion with Andrew recently,and he thinks that
the maceration technique with perry pears (particularly Butt)was
traditionally carried out by leaving the small depth layer of pulp in
the stone trough (where the fruit is crushed with a stone roller
pulled round by horse) for a while before removing the juice.I do not
know whether modern perry makers have a modern equivalent of shallow
tanks in which to macerate the pear pulp for 24hrs.I also now sulphite
all of my fruit,and for pears use Andrew Lea's table of added sulphite
vs pH for apples and add another 50ppm for perry pears as he has
suggested.
I try not to use a yeast culture as I really do not know which yeast
to use for cider or perry.I have a good brew shop nearby which sells a
good range of yeasts for wine and beer;they also have a sachet marked
cider yeast,but they told me that it was a beer yeast that they found
worked for cider!I would be interested to know what yeast other cider
(or perry)makers use for their cultured yeast.
My other query about yeasts is that one is never sure what natural
yeast is left over from season to season,when one uses a press for
cider apple and perry pear pressing.I also use another basket press
for red and white grapes and again am not sure what yeast dominates
when letting the grapes ferment naturally(after sulphiting of course)
Regards
Michael

On 1 Oct, 13:50, Dries Muylaert <dries.muyla...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Pear pulp should be allowed to stand 24 hours before pressing. Gives the
> tannin a chance to break down by contact with oxygen. Adding sulfite the
> pulp is however necessary. If no rest has been allowed, the tannin can
> precipitate in the juice taking high levels of natural yeast with it. Hence
> retarded fermentation of a juice that by nature is already poor on
> nutrients. Main risk is that lactic fermentation creeps in, not wanted at
> all as pears are already low on acid and that acid is for a substantial part
> made of citric acid. Lactic fermentation can turn that citric acid in acetic
> acid. Not pleasant at all as pear cider reveals defaults harder than other
> ciders. Pear cider should therefore as a rule be sulfited (what's the
> correct English expression btw.) thoroughly. Especially if from eating
> pears, not perry pears.
> The combination of low nutrients, high sulfite and the tannin effect makes
> wild fermentation of pear juice a risky business. Once fermentation gets
> started a lot of risks are over. So there is no shame in adding yeast
> nutrients and using a yeast culture.
>

> On 10/1/09, michael <michael.ibbot...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > I am still waiting patiently for my perry pear juice to start
> > fermenting.I pressed on September 15th and added 50ppm extra sulphite
> > on to the amount recommended in Andrew's table for a pH of
> > 3.8.Interestingly a batch started at the same time but containing 30%
> > cider apple juice,and treated in the same way has just started
> > (suddenly)to have a good and developing positive pressure.I remember
> > Andrew saying wait for two-four weeks,but that seems a very long time
> > of anxiety before deciding whether to pitch in some commercial yeast.
> > It is well known,I think,that the yeast responsible for the full
> > fermentation of cider/perry (without adding cultured yeast)comes from
> > the wine press,racks,etc,rather than the apple skins or pulp.
> > I clean my racks by soaking them in a Milton sterilising solution,but
> > wash my press only with water.So,since I press both cider apples and
> > perry pears on this press,it is not clear which yeast persists on my
> > press-does it matter?
> > I have a similar question with another smaller(basket) press which I
> > use to press red and white grapes.If again,I hope to use a natural
> > yeast,which one persists on the press?Can I only be sure that I use a
> > yeast appropiate to red or white wine if I use a cultured yeast.

> > Michael- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Claude Jolicoeur]

On Oct 2, 7:11 am, michael wrote:
> I try not to use a yeast culture as I really do not know which yeast
> to use for cider or perry.I have a good brew shop nearby which sells a
> good range of yeasts for wine and beer;they also have a sachet marked
> cider yeast,but they told me that it was a beer yeast that they found
> worked for cider!I would be interested to know what yeast other cider
> (or perry)makers use for their cultured yeast.

I have used Lalvain EC-1118 for 20 years and it has given some
excellent ciders. This is a Champagne yeast, it is strong and tends to
ferment all the way to dryness.
This year I am testing 2 new yeasts in addition to my usual one:
Lalvain 71B-1122
Wyeast 4783 Rudsheimer (a Riesling yeast)
For this test, I have prepared 3 identical 20 litre batches of juice
last weekend that were pitched each with one of the yeasts. I intend
to take notes on speed of fermentation, TA variations, residual sugar
at the end of fermentation, and taste of the finished cider.

Some interesting features of these yeasts:
71B-1122 (Saccharomyces cerevisiae) Selected in Narbonne at the
Institut national de recherche en agriculture (INRA) by J. Maugenet.
The selection was designed to isolate yeasts that would produce a
fruity yet fresh character in wine that would live long after
fermentation. 71B is particularly known for its use in fermenting
fruity blush and semi-sweet whites. Long-lived aromas are due to its
production of esters and higher alcohols. 71B also softens high acid
musts by partially metabolizing malic acid.

4783 Rudsheimer : Produces distinct Riesling character. Rich flavor,
creamy, fruity profile with nice dry finish and a hint of Riesling
sweetness in the aftertaste. Slow fermentation rate allows for higher
residual sugar. Recommended for Rhine Wines, Fruity Ciders, Riesling,
lce Wine.

Results should be interesting...

Claude Jolicoeur

[Dries Muylaert]

The surface of the pommace is of limited importance for the contact of the pulp with oxygen. Crushing the pears provides a massive presence of oxygen within the whole pommace. Wild yeasts on pears? Cider pears, as cider apples have been -probably unknowingly- selected also for the  yeast they carry. So for a perry pear pommace I wouldn't worry. Eating pears however have not been selected for vinification. It's not inconceivable they would carry weak or bad yeast stems. I was told traditionally in England bear yeast was used for perry. Probably because it was the only type available if the fermentation wouldn't start and adding yeast was necessary. If you can get your hands on it and fermentation doesn't start spontaneously, why not? But I would prefer a cold yeast like Bayanus (bioferm cool). Always a good idea to ferment aromatic juice cool as it will retain more aroma's.

Btw. do not be overalarmed if the spontaneous fermentation doesn't start fast. Might take some time, especially if no nutrients are added, sulfitation was heavy and most temperature is low.

 

[HEW]

Any follow up on this thread? How did the yeast trials on perry back in 2009 turn out?

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Yes, I did give results of this yeast test on this forum. Should be in the archives...
However, this test was on cider, not perry.
For perries, I usually use the 1118 yeast.
Claude