A poorly 'DABINET'.

[john.jacks]

Hello to the group,

Can any body advise what is wrong with one of my Dabinet trees, this is one of three that I bought last year on mm106 (semi dwarfing?), it has developed a patch that is devoid of bark, it has had some blight but has also borne a few apples.

   What can be done?. I am attaching a photo taken yesterday.

Thank you.

John H.

[Ray Blockley]

Apple Canker. Cut out & burn ASAP is the usual recommendation. 

Sorry! :-(

Ray.

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[john....@btinternet.com]

Cheers Ray, will do as you say.

John H

----Original message----
From : raymond...@gmail.com
Date : 10/08/2015 - 12:27 (GMTST)
To : cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Subject : Re: [Cider Workshop] A poorly 'DABINET'.

[Ray Blockley]

John - Canker is bacterial so you'll need to ensure everything is
thoroughly clean / cleansed. It can be easily spread by using cutting
kit that is not scrupulously cleaned.

As you cut, check for staining that shows the bacterium are spreading
within the wood; if you spot any, keep cutting until you get clean,
clear heart- & sap-wood.

Speaking from painful experience, can I ask if you got the trees from
the same nursery...? I lost a number of trees to canker - and I'm
still fighting it - and all of the trees came from the same nursery,
so I suspect their rootstock may have been infected? Just a guess. Do
check all your trees carefully.

Good luck!

Cheers, Ray

[c...@theapplefarm.com]

Hello John and Ray,
While Ray's advice is exactly right, I am afraid that canker is not
bacterial. It was originally thought of as fungal, and then some dispute
arose about this classification, but it now again is classified as a
fungus.
I believe that infected rootstocks are a major problem, though the lesion
you pictured looks like a classical leaf scar infection (an infection that
occurred when a leaf fell off the tree and the scar was infected, probably
from a nearby lesion in an another infected tree).
On a side point, a number of years ago a major research project screened
the rootstocks of tree nurseries, and some were infected and some were
clean. The plan was that this knowledge would force those with infected
nurseries to clean up their act. However, the results were never made
public by the researchers, so no pressure was brought to bear on the
nurseries, and I think there are still significant differences between
trees from different nurseries.
Having said that, in commercial situations, growers just remove infections
(either by local pruning or replacement of entire trees in the first year
or two), and once the orchard is established, canker does not present such
a problem in the case of most varieties. As it happens Dabinett is not the
most susceptible, Michelin being much worse.

Con Traas

[Ray Blockley]

Thanks, Con. Good to be updated. Is it also true then that it is still
difficult to treat / control with fungicides...?

Ray

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[Cornelius Traas]

Hello Ray,
Fungicides are of limited use in treating apple canker. Applications at leaf
fall (copper, captan, some DMI's) do have a protective effect, but the
fungicides that used to offer some control of existing lesions are no longer
available/approved for these uses.

Con Traas

[Richard Anderson]

In the costal Northwest US apple canker (aka apple anthracnose) is a major problem due to the wet and mild winter climate. As previously stated it is fungal and difficult to deal with. In my orchard it is a major problem, harder on some varieties than others. The source is a adjacent orchard of old standard trees which I cannot remove. It is particularly hard on new growth and young trees. For branch/twig infections cutting and burning is the best solution. An alternative, particularly on larger wood is to use a hand torch and follow up with a hand sprayer of fungicide. It is really nasty stuff and if allowed to get out of hand the only solution is probably to remove the entire orchard, this is why a lot of growers remove the entire tree. If you spray with copper use a lot of sticker.

[Rod Calder-Potts]

We have a 20 acre organic orchard in mild and wet Ireland. Including many Dabinet.

We had a canker problem many years ago when we sprayed nasty chemicals on the trees but we got less and less since we stopped. Now we have very little indeed.

 

We have a theory that canker is a plague that you get when you disturb the micro-organism kingdom with fungicides, herbicides and other anti-biotics. The canker doctor (whatever that is) seems to be one of the micro-organism mechanisms that is particularly susceptible to chemicals. Now we don't even cut out the canker as we imagine that the canker doctor needs something to do.

Nobody understands the collateral damage that is done to the important microorganism flora by agrochemicals, yet farmers dont hesitate to apply these powerful chemicals. 

There are other solutions, particularly for cider apples that do not need a good cosmetic finish.

Rod Calder-Potts

Cuffesgrange,

Co. Kilkenny.

R 95 N1 KC

IRELAND

00 353 (0) 56 7729918
www.highbankorchards.com

highba...@gmail.com

Winner Euro-Toques Food Award 2015
McKenna Megabite Award Best Alcoholic Drink 2014 
Winner of Food & Wine Mag Artisan of the Year Award 2013
Winner of The Irish Food Writers Guild Award 2013

On 11 Aug 2015, at 03:47, Richard Anderson <rhand...@centurytel.net> wrote:

In the costal Northwest US  apple canker (aka apple anthracnose) is a major problem due to the wet and mild winter climate. As previously stated it is fungal and difficult to deal with. In my orchard it is a major problem, harder on some varieties than others. The source is a adjacent orchard of old standard trees which I cannot remove. It is particularly hard on new growth and young trees. For branch/twig  infections cutting and burning is the best solution. An alternative, particularly on larger wood is to use a hand torch and follow up with a hand sprayer of fungicide. It is really nasty stuff and if allowed to get out of hand the only solution is probably to remove the entire orchard, this is why a lot of growers remove the entire tree. If you spray with copper use a lot of sticker.  

[Ray Blockley]

That's an interesting viewpoint. I have never ever sprayed any of my trees for anything, but have lost Kingston Blacks (OK - they have a bit of a notoriety for copping for things) and Morgan Sweets, with damage done to others. The only vector in all of these was the nursery I bought them from. These trees have been in the ground for 7 to 15+ years, on MM106 & MM25 rootstocks.

I understand that certain types of hedgerow can be reservoirs for infection / disease, but I can't remember hearing of any that could harbour Canker...? Is that a possibility? 

Ray. 

 

To post to this group, send email to cider-w...@googlegroups.com.

[Cornelius Traas]

Rod makes a very fair point about apple canker. There is good evidence from forestry (where trees are affected by related Neonectria species) that there are other microorganisms that keep it under control, provided that chemicals harmful to the beneficial micro-organisms are not used.

The problem for young trees is that colonisation with these beneficials may take some time, and of course, an infection on the main trunk will be fatal, whereas on older trees, old wood does not usually get new infections, and losing some young branches is not fatal.

Con Traas

[Andrew Lea]

On 11/08/2015 03:47, Richard Anderson wrote:
> In the costal Northwest US apple canker (aka apple anthracnose) is a
> major problem due to the wet and mild winter climate.

Don't want to be picky but European apple canker is due to Nectria and
is not the same as PNW anthracnose due to Neofabria. See
http://www.agf.gov.bc.ca/cropprot/tfipm/european.htm and
http://www.agf.gov.bc.ca/cropprot/tfipm/anthracnose.htm for the
comparison. However the symptoms are not dissimilar.

My impression (having seen Rich's anthracnose at first hand) is that
European canker in the UK is less damaging than anthracnose is in the
PNW and is less likely to cause wholesale loss of trees. But a proper
orchardist may wish to correct me! And of course when organisms jump
continents, unexpected things do happen.

BTW I have corrected the thread title here because the persistent
misspelling of Dabinett is getting rather annoying.

Andrew

--
near Oxford, UK
Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

[Ray Blockley]

Least it wasn't "Dabinette" Andrew ;-)

Ray.

[Nicholas Bradstock]

Ray makes a good point re harbouring of infective material in hedgerows.

Many hedgerow plants, in the UK at least, can be culprits and a regular inspection and action to remove suspect and cankered vegetation is advised by NACM.

Take extra care when in the closed period (28 Feb to 31 Aug) for agri- and horti- hedge trimming......!

Nick

iPhone

On 11 Aug 2015, at 10:23, Ray Blockley <raymond...@gmail.com> wrote:

That's an interesting viewpoint. I have never ever sprayed any of my trees for anything, but have lost Kingston Blacks (OK - they have a bit of a notoriety for copping for things) and Morgan Sweets, with damage done to others. The only vector in all of these was the nursery I bought them from. These trees have been in the ground for 7 to 15+ years, on MM106 & MM25 rootstocks.

I understand that certain types of hedgerow can be reservoirs for infection / disease, but I can't remember hearing of any that could harbour Canker...? Is that a possibility? 

Ray. 

 

On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 10:15 AM, Rod Calder-Potts <highba...@gmail.com> wrote:

We have a 20 acre organic orchard in mild and wet Ireland. Including many Dabinet.

We had a canker problem many years ago when we sprayed nasty chemicals on the trees but we got less and less since we stopped. Now we have very little indeed.

 

We have a theory that canker is a plague that you get when you disturb the micro-organism kingdom with fungicides, herbicides and other anti-biotics. The canker doctor (whatever that is) seems to be one of the micro-organism mechanisms that is particularly susceptible to chemicals. Now we don't even cut out the canker as we imagine that the canker doctor needs something to do.

Nobody understands the collateral damage that is done to the important microorganism flora by agrochemicals, yet farmers dont hesitate to apply these powerful chemicals. 

There are other solutions, particularly for cider apples that do not need a good cosmetic finish.

Rod Calder-Potts

Cuffesgrange,

Co. Kilkenny.

R 95 N1 KC

IRELAND

00 353 (0) 56 7729918
www.highbankorchards.com

highba...@gmail.com

<organic trust logo.png>

[john....@btinternet.com]

Thanks again Ray,

           And thanks to anybody else that has commented, thinking now about what has been said about chemical sprays, this year because the peach tree that I have grown from a stone  but  has always had leaf curl and have continually treated this year on three or four occasions with 'Bordeaux' powder mixed in a water base also spraying my apple trees 'because they are there', as a precaution, would this have possibly caused the loss of 'good bacteria' from the said tree, as for other trees or hedge rows carrying the infection there is a large Fir tree hedge about 2.5 metres away could these have a bearing on the 'canker', there is a half standard apple tree about 3.5 metres away, reputed to be a 'Granny Smith' which appears to be OK, also the other two young Dabinet's and the 'Kingston Blacks' also seem OK, the infected tree is about 2 metres from a 'Buddleja' tree that I will move at the end of this year.

Thanks then all.

John H        

----Original message----
From : john....@btinternet.com
Date : 10/08/2015 - 17:24 (GMTST)

[Richard Anderson]

Andrew is correct, my terminology is sloppy, if it grows lesions its "canker" and I grump about it all winter as I prune it out. According to WSU plant pathologists we have several types anthracnose in the NW US and Canada. Most common is Cryptosporiopsis curvispora in the wet mild coastal regions and perennial canker or Cryptosporiopsis perennans on the dry eastside. As Andrew observed it is very destructive and equally frustrating since little research has been done to control it. Interesting enough, Kingston Black seem to weather it out fairly well unlike the UK where they are apparently susceptible to the European canker.

[Derek Brady]

Hi all,

Con you mention "apple canker" - does that mean that canker is specific to particular fruit tree species or can the same canker infect trees from other fruit tree species?

I planted an orchard of 46 trees earlier this year in damp southwest Ireland with alternating rows of plum, pear and apple.
Within each species-specific row I varied the variety amongst the 3 or 4 trees for pollination purposes.

My hope was that separating species as much as possible would hinder the spread of species-specific disease.

Would this help with reducing the possible spread of canker or would the wind just carry the fungal spores everywhere within the same orchard?

regards,

Derek Brady

---

From: Cornelius Traas <c...@theapplefarm.com>
To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, 11 August 2015, 3:04:19
Subject: [Cider Workshop] A poorly 'DABINET' & apple canker

Rod makes a very fair point about apple canker. There is good evidence from forestry (where trees are affected by related Neonectria species) that there are other microorganisms that keep it under control, provided that chemicals harmful to the beneficial micro-organisms are not used.

The problem for young trees is that colonisation with these beneficials may take some time, and of course, an infection on the main trunk will be fatal, whereas on older trees, old wood does not usually get new infections, and losing some young branches is not fatal.

Con Traas

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[Cornelius Traas]

Hello Derek,

The organism causing apple canker does not infect plums but does infect pears. Keeping the trees apart like that will assist somewhat as it is splash dispersed.

 

Con

[Thomas Fehige]

According to this (German) article the canker fungus spreads with the aid of different kinds of spores, some for short distances and contact contamination with shears, insects, ladders, birds... (spring, summer), the other will fly several hundred metres and are produced the year round, being most infectuous in late autmn and in spring.

In order for a canker infection to "work", the tree needs to be wet for at least six hours. It seems that an open planting with a lot of wind between the trees is a good idea.

The same article also mentions that fungicides containing copper or benzimidazoles are toxic for earthworms. Applying such preparations therfore causes a slower composting of the dead leaves and a more compacted ground. The ground around the trees will be wet for longer, which works in favour of the canker and other fungi.

Cheers -- Thomas

[Wes Cherry]

I have found that it is best to wait until the tree is out of dormancy to carve out anthracnose cankers. When I carve them out in the middle of winter they continue to enlarge. This year I had cut out cankers that enlarged from a thumbprint size to over 2 feet along a branch. It was a very warm winter here so that may have been enough warmth for the cankers to enlarge so much.

Some people believe in burning out the cankers, but I think the collateral damage to the healthy tissue inhibits the ability of the tree to wall off the canker.

I am going to go through the orchard in the next month and liberally paint all the cut-out cankers with latex paint mixed with copper sulfate. That should hopefully stop them from developing conidia and spreading spores.
Anthracnose also infects fruit (bulls-eye rot), so good to remove fallen fruit as well as mummified fruit hanging on the tree is good practice.

Kingston black is by far the worst for getting anthracnose for me. Dabinett is perhaps the next most susceptible. Too bad because they are both such excellent cider apples.

BTW, I found this paper on perennial canker in eastern washington (hot dry summers, cold winters).
https://www.apsnet.org/publications/PlantDisease/BackIssues/Documents/1992Articles/PlantDisease76n11_1109.pdf

The conclusion was they found a strong correlation between temperature and spread of perennial canker. They found no correlation with precipitation.

-Wes

[Llanblethian Orchards - Alex]

It's canker, prune out into healthy tissue and disinfect the tools with dilute bleach/white spirit etc.

My orchard is wet and I prune it out twice a year, remove any you can see in the winter and in July look for new branch dieback or dead branches and cut it out.

I have pared out canker on huge branches as Wes does and it can work, but im just a slash and burn man with canker, kingston black is a pig for it.

Alex