Cider Flavor Survey

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CiderSupply.com

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Feb 17, 2021, 10:33:09 PM2/17/21
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Hi Group, this year i have decided to do a cider experiment where regardless of vintage or blender, i have made multiple single batches of ciders to try and find certain representative flavor profiles unique to each cultivar used listed below.

The challenge now is to treat each carboy exactly the same. All apples were sweated for the same time, and all sugars and starches very similar. Grinding, maceration, and pressing all the same time and pressing date same also. Added enough SO2 to all as applicable to kill off wild yeast and such. Then have added Lalvin D47 yeast to all and intend on allowing yeast to fully finish fermentation slowly at 42 Deg F and let the cider go bone dry. Obviously i will have to add some malic acid for the bittersweets to be stable and not go insipid.

My question is related to the lees. I do not know if i should start racking to limit the yeast build up, so excess nitrogen from yeast decay does not build up and cause over active fermentations? I think that that leaving these lees may introduce flavors that are unrelated to the apples, but i am not sure. 

To get the full flavor profiles of each cultivar,  i am not sure to age them all on  their lees or not and bottle right after fermentations.

The cultivars below are this years test, any insight and opinions would be great. What would you do?

Dabinet
Brown Snout
Kermerrian 
Bedan 
Gilpin 
Ellis Bitter 
Chisel Jersey 
Nehou 
Amerde Berthcourt 
Lady 
Bramtot 
Marchael 
Frequin 
Porters Perfection
Boutiel de Lessux 
 


Dick Dunn

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Feb 17, 2021, 11:42:25 PM2/17/21
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Chris - This looks like an interesting experiment, and I'm sure you'll give
us a fair bit of valuable info out of it...
BUT!...
I get caught on your explanation of how to control the experiment: "The
challenge now is to treat each carboy exactly the same. All apples were
sweated for the same time,"...etc.

The trouble I see is that the "proper treatment" (such as that may be) can
vary quite a bit from one variety to the next. Just to pick an example, I
would not sweat Nehou at all. In my experience, as it grows here, I need
to press it as soon as possible after harvest/drop. Porter's Perfection,
on the other hand, can languish for a while...lest when you mill them, the
tannin leap out, fangs bared, and chase you around the press!
Or stated differently, how do you choose the exact treatment you'll use?

But, then, if the "proper treatment" varies from one variety to the next
(and I'm sure it does!), who's to say what that proper treatment might be?
You're trying to do a properly controlled experiment, but on a rather
UNcontrolled sample base.
Perhaps one cidermaker wants (or needs for the blend) the most assertive
tannins that Porter's can give, where another needs them to mellow to make
the cider palatable in a different blend.

Mind you, I don't have any answers here! I'm taking a devil's advocate
position. I've thought for many years about how to do these experiments,
and I do learn, yet I fall back on trying to intuit the best approach.
Intuition is weak at best even with experience. The apples fool me.
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Dick Dunn rc...@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA

Miguel Pereda

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Feb 18, 2021, 2:02:27 AM2/18/21
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Chris. It is very interesting what you have done. But keep in mind that logically, starting from different apples, the initial conditions of the must are different in many parameters such as nitrogen, acidity and pH to mention some of the most important ones. As a consequence, even if you use the same yeast, the fermentation results will be very different. You are going to get different analytical parameters of TA, VA, malic, lactic, glycerol and residual fructose when you get to 1000 density and here is the key because you must not forget about the population of your lactic acid bacteria that are going to continue to act, unless you kill them with SO2. It may have happened that in some varieties of apples the MLF has occurred and in others not or only partially.
What to do when you reach, for example, 1000? This is a very important decision for cidercraft and what you do will determine the sensory, taste and aromatic profile of the cider you get or want to get. If you bottle all your ciders at that point without addition of SO2 and let them mature in the bottle long enough, the lactic bacteria will act in the bottle metabolising acids, residual fructose and even glycerol, producing more or less CO2 and within, say, nine months you will be able to observe the "natural" behaviour of each variety.
If you when you get to 1000 bottle by adding SO2, you will largely kill your LB and then what you will get will be different because you are interrupting the natural maturation process in bottle.
If on the other hand you let your cider mature for some time on the lees the situation changes completely. The LB will continue to act but in other nutritional conditions and it is also true that the lees can contribute aromas and flavours that are not suitable. If I may give you some advice, I would separate the lees when it reaches that value of 1000 and bottle, but this is my personal choice.
As you can see the options and the decisions you have to make are varied to draw some conclusions as well. But it is a very formative work. Congratulations.

Miguel Ángel Pereda

Eric Tyira

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Feb 18, 2021, 6:59:54 AM2/18/21
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It’s an experiment. As such, you define the parameters, whether right or wrong. 

If the starting SG is 1.014 for example, rack at 1.007.  Then again at 1.003. Then again when finished.  If that’s too much, then change the values.  

Next year, take the best three results and do an experiment with multiple carboys of each cultivar where each is treated differently.  No intermediate rackings, bottle conditioning and not, etc.  Then you’ll get a full appreciation for how each responds to different scenarios.  

In my extremely limited experience, I’ve found the different yeasts impact the final result very significantly, so a repeat experiment with multiple yeats is probably warranted at some point.  Perhaps you’ll find a match between yeast variety and apple variety that maximizes the flavor experience. 

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Mark Fitzsimmons

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Feb 18, 2021, 2:11:48 PM2/18/21
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This is an interesting and useful experiment, and the comments before me highlight important differences that will naturally change the results for each variety. To test the difference a variety causes keeping your behavioral factors the same, I think I would not use target gravities to decide when to rack for this first experiment. If you want them to go dry, let them go until they start to clear on their own, then rack (perhaps not at the same time), and age on fine lees for six weeks or longer without SO2 and let each variety show you propensity for MLF, oxidation, tannin polymerization, etc.
Just my opinion, all the other opinions are very interesting variations on how this might be done!
My other opinion echoes another: Yeast variety will have a significant flavor component which you might consider in a future experiment. 

rhand...@centurytel.net

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Feb 18, 2021, 3:28:12 PM2/18/21
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Chris you might also be interested in the single variety trials the were conducted at the WSU Mt. Vernon station a number of years ago. I do not know how well the trial methodology  or results were documented but If interested you might contact Bri Ewing or check their cider website to see if there is anything.

 

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joshkel...@gmail.com

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Feb 18, 2021, 3:55:44 PM2/18/21
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Chris,
This is a great idea and will be fun to do the tasting throughout ! You may find that as you go, one cider might be good early on, but not so good later. That's important information! Now you know that at X point in time, with that variety, you should try something different next time. 
I would also say an experiment that might provide more comparable data would be to try different treatment of the same single variety during a season. Take a single variety and with one batch macerate, the other do not. Sulphite one and not the other. Add different yeasts to each of those batches. Rack one early and the other don't ever rack. And so on. By the end you may have dozens of different batches of the same variety, but then can truly assess which path works best for that variety. 
I've always wanted to do something like that but often don't produce enough of a single variety to do it right. You may have given me the push to give this a go next season! (And it reminds me of the importance of taking notes...)
Looking forward to seeing your notes on this experiment. 
Best,
Josh in the Catskill Mountains, NY

CiderSupply.com

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Feb 18, 2021, 4:26:34 PM2/18/21
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Hi All, i will keep U all posted as this progresses. The variables in this have definitely become a matrix of 3-dimensional cause and effect for sure. As far as Dick's info, on sweating, I must clarify, As the apples became close to becoming "Cider Ripe" i placed them in the chiller to slow down any further changes in the apples. That is how i got the early and ones that dont sweat well last so late and allow to be pressed with the very late cultivars. In retrospect I should have probably started fermentation of those when early. Miguel i think i am going to take small samples of all the lees and blend and re inoculate all the carboys with the blended shared lees to help distribute any malolactic bacteria and other bacteria to help grow the same stuff in all carboys. Eric, yes i think that it will be likely that next season different yeasts or compounds of the same apples if the experiment is repeated, could have different flavors, but i guess several iterations of the experiment would be even more substantive.  Richard, thanks I will also revisit the WSU cider reports, that is a good idea. They did do some of these trials also and have some data also. It will be interesting to bounce my trial against theirs.  Oh Yes Josh…you just scared the crap outa me! All the note taking J

Thanks to ya all, I will post some photos here, but also posting on instagram.

 

Thanks again

Chris Rylands

Renaissance Orchards

Ferndale WA 

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Feb 18, 2021, 4:55:46 PM2/18/21
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Dave Fulton

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Feb 18, 2021, 8:37:40 PM2/18/21
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Chris,

What an exciting project!. I personally love D47 - and a similar experiment of my own in 2019 was with Baldwins from an ancient tree here in Northern Maine (borderline desert/sharp) and to leave them on the lees for almost a year, not really by design, I was trying out a dozen or so yeasts (including a wild yeast fermentation) and it was the second to last one that I bottled (I was basically bottling them after finishing drinking each experiment - and since most were 4-5 gallons it took a while :P). It clarified really well in the last month or so, and the autolysis of the yeast magnified the apply-ness of the juice. I did a bunch of tests on different yeasts and D47 beat out all  the other yeasts i tried (wine yeasts, ale yeasts, wild and safcider). The tail was complex and varied even though my taste is usually for more tannic/bitter ciders. If the Baldwin tree wasn't so bi-ennial,  I would have done a test of D47 against D21 last fall (its normal pairing for wine - where the two are often in wines blended together). 

Looking forward to some of the scionwood I got from you taking so I can repeat a similar experiment to yours. I'm very jealous! Think I'm going to have to wait a while. :/ Hopefully I can get a few YM and KB in with the Baldwins this year. 

Will keep a close eye on this thread! Very interested in the results!

DF



On Thu, Feb 18, 2021 at 4:55 PM CiderSupply.com <cryl...@comcast.net> wrote:
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cidersupply.com

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Feb 18, 2021, 11:56:13 PM2/18/21
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Hi Dave, I must say that having hundreds of hard cider cultivars is great in the sence of having cider experimentation options. On the other hand it's a bit of a curse because so many pickings are required, and lots of separate pressings. Its Heaven during the growing season and Hell during harvest LOL



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joshkel...@gmail.com

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Feb 19, 2021, 1:35:44 PM2/19/21
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Chris, 
As someone who takes ZERO notes (well, does masking tape on a carboy with a few illegible scribbles constitute notes?), I was hoping you would do the work for me :-)

DICK KIRK

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Feb 19, 2021, 3:48:32 PM2/19/21
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out two years away from enough apples from my own apple menagerie to have enough. The crfg does an annual blind tasting, mostly dessert apples. The diversity of palates is always amazing!  A major split between sweet & tart. But within these, great variation of preferences. I would like to do a tasting of only “cider” apples, if people would tolerate biting into 50+ bitter sharps, etc. Could any of us tell what the resulting cider might be like?

I suggest that you consider some portion of your batches to be “untreated”-wild yeasts, no SO2, etc.

Another is, if you haven’t already, keep note of apple characteristics before processing: TA, Brix, etc.

Keep it up!
Dick Kirk

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DICK KIRK

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Feb 19, 2021, 3:51:02 PM2/19/21
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Here’s the “cut off” intro to my previous send. Sorry:  Chris: From Northern Calif (Cal Rare Fruit Growers-“recrfg”) yours is a great project!  I’m one a similar track, but ab

Dave Fulton

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May 6, 2021, 8:39:15 PM5/6/21
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Chris,

Any updates on your D47 experiments? There were a few BSW on your list, so even adding a little malic acid, I  imagine that you've had to SO2 and bottle them by now, just to keep them clean. Would love to know how the experiment went!

DF



cidersupply.com

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May 6, 2021, 10:14:52 PM5/6/21
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Hi Dave and group, I will post soon but here is what I will post. Have not bottled yet. I will age for another 4 to 6 months.

Have only racked Ashmeads Kernel, it has gone to high alcohol flavor. All other ciders still too sweet to rack now.

This week May 3, 2012:
The 1st to finish initial ferment are in this order Ashmead's kernel finished 1st and went clear. porters perfection finished 2nd but still a bit turbid. Kermerrian finished the 3rd.

All others should be finishing inital ferment soon likely in three weeks from now and I will do first racking then. All other ciders are still  turbid, but bramtot and bedan are especially turbid. All ciders fermenting at same velocity at 38 Deg F to 48 deg F. All ciders building the same amount of lees. Still to early for testing nose, too much co2 being produced. Tried smelling a few and they almost put me on my ass.

Below is the May 1st tasting for Acidity, Tannin, Astringency, and other profile elements if present.

They are listed in order of prominence and what I taste first and what the taste finishes with. Where order numbers are present, that cider has clear phases of flavor that clearly strike first before the next one comes into play. Where there are no numbers, they are more blended in transition.

Here we go so far:

Kermerrian: 1 sweet floral fruity 2 mild drying astringency, finish with mild tannins 

Marchael, 1 slightly watery, 2 Astringent, then finishes with med tannins.

Bedan: 1 sweet floral fruity with slight grapefruit acidity finish with mild drying astringency, mild tannins. All perfect balance.

Gilpin: acidic, finish with slightly unpleasant hard tannin/grapefruit 

Frequin: 
1 slightly watery, 2 Astringent, then finishes with med to hi grapefruit and tannins.

Bramtot: perfect balance of sweet, acid, tannin, and finish ing with astringency. All in check.

Ellis Bitter, sweet astringency/tannic balance from start to finish the same.

Chisel Jersey: unique candied flavor up front, with medium acidity and tannic finishes perfectly. Best flavor so far. 

Nehou: great balance of sweet, acid, tannin, and finish ing with astringency. All verywell in check, but also has a nice different apple flavor than the others hard to explain.

Amerde Berthcourt: watery sweetish finish with mild grapefruit and ghi astringency, minimal tannin.

Lady: all previously said flavors all in equal and excellent balance.

Porters: all previously said flavors all in equal and excellent balance but apple flavor is different but good.

Boutiel de lessux: overpowering grapefruit and bitter tannin up front and finish.

Asmeads: overpowering lemony grapefruit stare to finish no tannin or astringency 

CiderSupply.com

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May 6, 2021, 10:44:42 PM5/6/21
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LOL ok so far that is my March Post for the Cider Flavor Survey. This experiment will continue into Fall i think because i want to see how aging effects the flavor profiles. Hang Tight i will upload some photos too.

CiderSupply.com

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May 7, 2021, 1:38:41 AM5/7/21
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May 1-5.jpg
May 1-1.jpg
May 1-4.jpgMay 1-2.jpg

CiderSupply.com

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May 10, 2021, 1:30:19 AM5/10/21
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Forgot to add these two to the previous tasting list:

Dabinett: Heavy Bitter tannins upfront, then slightly tapers off when finishes with sweetness and hint of mild acidity.

Brown  Snout: Medium tannin up front, then tapers off with minor character. Slightly insipid.

Dave Fulton

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May 11, 2021, 8:08:09 PM5/11/21
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Chris, 

Fascinating stuff - thanks for keeping us informed. The range of colors in the various musts are fascinating - at this point with a very young orchard, most of my cider fruit is coming from my old Baldwins,, so i'm seeing some of the subtle differences different yeasts have on the same raw materials, but clearly the fruit used have a major influence. Hopefully your lemony battery acid Ashmeads softens a little bit during maturation. Love the tasting list summaries. Reminds me that I've still got some scionwood of one or two of your more favored varieties to graft!

DF

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May 12, 2021, 12:18:25 AM5/12/21
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Thanks one year I did a big apple sweating, maceration, and/or freezing survey to see which pulps needed which kinds of presses after those processes for the most juice extraction and quality. The results were fascinating and priceless. Glad i did it. Saved tons of money not buying the wrong press for the types of apples i would end up using. Below are the test bags of pulps evaluated.

Pulp Survey.jpg

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May 12, 2021, 12:20:44 AM5/12/21
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Oh yes and there was the cider color survey after that from the pulps pressed :-)
Color and Brix Survey.jpg


On Tuesday, May 11, 2021 at 5:08:09 PM UTC-7 dfult...@gmail.com wrote:

Michael

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May 18, 2021, 9:23:21 AM5/18/21
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Beautiful stuff. I hope you'll be posting a few more photos :)
What kind of press did you end up using?

CiderSupply.com

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Mar 31, 2022, 1:36:44 AMMar 31
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The Final Outcome 2022:
IMG_20220329_113952_476.jpg

Dave Fulton

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Mar 31, 2022, 7:19:07 AMMar 31
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Amazing! How would you rank them, Chris? In terms of your personal preference/taste etc. 

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Michael

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Mar 31, 2022, 8:22:17 AMMar 31
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Looking at the ABVs - were these all pasteurized early?
Can Bramtot, Kermerrien and Amere de Berthecourt hold their own as single variety bottlings?
Is that Frequin that's not Frequin Rouge the variety they call Gros Frequin?

CiderSupply.com

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Apr 2, 2022, 2:36:44 AMApr 2
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Hi Dave, frankly...the bittersweets all are a bit insipid from minimal acid, but the low alcohol would be their saving grace as the tannins and sugar help setup flavor. The phenolics i love, but some people like them. Chisel Jersey, Lady, and Porters P. are good, but blending in some of the bittersweets totally take them to the next level.

CiderSupply.com

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Apr 2, 2022, 2:54:53 AMApr 2
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Hi Michael, all the ciders were all treated the same: slow fermented in glass using Lalvin ICV D47™ yeast at 42-50° deg F for 6 months. Then aged on the secondary lees for 12 months until they all dropped clear. Then all bottled and pasteurized at the same time.  Bramtot, Kermerrien and Amere de Berthecourt at low alcohol levels 2 to 3% ABV one could easily get by with great flavor, but the higher the alcohol goes, the more insipid the flavors become. For 5% ABV and above most definitely need acidic juice blended in. In the USA yes that is Frequin. it is different than Frequin Rouge and still different than Gros Frequin. All three of these apples i grow and none are the same but all are full bittersweets. Different tannic structures and look and ripen a bit differently also. I will say this, it sure would be great if someone made non alcoholic apple juice from all the European cider apples grown. Because, when properly sweated and aged, apple juice made from regular eating apples doesn't stand a chance. The flavor profiles and aromatics completely are the best in my opinion. 

CiderSupply.com

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Apr 2, 2022, 3:03:17 AMApr 2
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Its kind of funny, lots of locals love the labels,  so they want to buy the ciders and do the big taste test...lol i got to tell them, you probably won't like any of them, and you probably wont even want to finish one. Try to explain that they are for cidermakers and orchardists to get an idea as what to plant and use to blend with problematic ciders. They don't understand anything about vintage and blenders. This year i will bet the list that no one else is selling so many poor tasting ciders LOL

Michael

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Apr 2, 2022, 5:30:41 AMApr 2
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Excellent work! I already have Kermerrien and will try to get my hands on those others.
And yes, making juice from them I will definitely try.

Did these ciders change because of pasteurization?

CGJ

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Apr 2, 2022, 8:38:57 AMApr 2
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OTOH, if there were more of us (cider / orcharding geeks) in an area
where we could meet in a central location, then getting a set, rounding
up a few hundred dixie cups, and sitting down together with our
notebooks would be a blast! You've done all the hard work, it would be
good to see some significant use made of it.

Carl
West Barnstable
Massachusetts

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Apr 3, 2022, 2:58:42 PMApr 3
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Thanks Michael, since the ciders were finished and dropped clear already, there was no flavor change because of the lower but longer time 138 Deg F just for any residual yeast pasteurization. 

CiderSupply.com

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Apr 3, 2022, 3:03:59 PMApr 3
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Hi Carl, that is true for sure. If anyone wants any they can contact me off the list at Ch...@RenaissanceOrchards.com 

David Pickering

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Apr 4, 2022, 4:43:21 AMApr 4
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Hi Chris,

Seeing the latest postings on this topic I went back and re-read the thread from the  2021 beginning.

Looking at your images of the varieties used - your email Feb 19, 2021 - I was a bit iffy about Kingston Black but obviously it responds somewhat differently in different climates so not looking the same in Washington State and in here in Australia is understandable.

But the image of Bedan shown in that email does trouble me. Boré and Fleckinger (Pommiers å Cidre) illustrate Bedan p99 as per below

They describe it as:
Epidreme.    Non rayé, formé par un lavé sur un fond jaune franc avec souvent des auréoles rouges.
My best translation of that is:
not striped, ‘washed out' a clear yellow background with often red halos
Claude may be able to do a better translation.

The French writer Truelle has a similar illustration :

The Bedan in Australia is a good match for these images with no indication of stripiness

Has the Bedan on your orchard been confirmed as true-to-type?

Cheers - David

David Pickering - "Linden Lea" 681 Huntley Road, ORANGE NSW 2800 Australia

http://www.cideroz.com/
http://www.cideraustralia.org.au/

Michael

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Apr 4, 2022, 4:55:31 AMApr 4
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Bedan, or Bedan des Parts, often also just called Bedan?

Eric Tyira

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Apr 4, 2022, 8:28:02 AMApr 4
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Hi Chris,

You have both "Tannin" and "Phenolics" as a category on the label.  Can you please explain the difference between the two?  I thought phenolics made up tannins.

Some talk about "Hard" and "Soft" tannins and I know there's a mouthfeel difference, but I may have them backward in my head.  Can you or someone help straighten me out with what is considered a hard tannin and what is considered soft?

Eric

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Claude Jolicoeur

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Apr 4, 2022, 9:49:17 AMApr 4
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Le lundi 4 avril 2022 à 04:43:21 UTC-4, David Pickering a écrit :
But the image of Bedan shown in that email does trouble me. Boré and Fleckinger (Pommiers å Cidre) illustrate Bedan p99 as per below

I agree that Bedan should be a yellowish-greenish apple. Below is a photo I took of Bedan while I was in Normandy. Please excuse the lack of sharpness, but it does show the general color.
As of Bedan des Parts, it does have more reddish color, but from the pictures I have seen, not as much as what Chris' photo of Bedan shows.

Bedan 131119.JPG

Andrew Lea

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Apr 4, 2022, 12:11:26 PMApr 4
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Some talk about "Hard" and "Soft" tannins and I know there's a mouthfeel difference, but I may have them backward in my head.  Can you or someone help straighten me out with what is considered a hard tannin and what is considered soft?

See my presentation here slides 10 - 12.  http://www.cider.org.uk/phenolics_in_cider_apples.pdf

Andrew

Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

erik walther

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Apr 4, 2022, 12:47:30 PMApr 4
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I would be into this........
I'm in NJ, so mid-atlantic/lower new england works for me.



**OTOH, if there were more of us (cider / orcharding geeks) in an area
where we could meet in a central location, then getting a set, rounding
up a few hundred dixie cups, and sitting down together with our
notebooks would be a blast! You've done all the hard work, it would be
good to see some significant use made of it. **

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Mike Beck

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Apr 4, 2022, 1:04:19 PMApr 4
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A good time to try this is during cider days in Western Massachusetts typically the first weekend of November.

Sadly due to Covid this event has not been its normal event. Hopefully Cider Days will return to full schedule this year. The hardest part is finding a good space.  Several local cider makers might be game for hosting such a tasting.  I would hop over a couple of big lakes to participate in that.

Mike in Michigan

 

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From: erik walther
Sent: Monday, April 4, 2022 12:48 PM
To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Re: Cider Flavor Survey

 

I would be into this........

CiderSupply.com

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Apr 5, 2022, 2:14:23 PMApr 5
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Hi David, thank you very much. I am thinking that you are correct, I will need to pull those images. The Bedan you show is what i am seeing here too. I will have to reshoot this fall when they are ready. 

CiderSupply.com

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Apr 5, 2022, 2:22:04 PMApr 5
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Hi again David, I just checked my photo dates and yes they are the Bedan photos are correct. The reason that you see a red tinge is because these photos are taken when they are "Cider Ripe" when "harder and juicier "Eating Ripe" they are yellow.. Pretty much most of all the yellow apples develop a red tinge when left on the tree past the fresh eating stage. Frankly, over the years i have seen so many apples that are true to cultivar but had photos taken at different stages of ripeness and grown in places with different heat units and sun exposure. 

On Monday, April 4, 2022 at 1:43:21 AM UTC-7 David Pickering wrote:

CiderSupply.com

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Apr 5, 2022, 2:33:03 PMApr 5
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There may be some molecular difference that exists, but for me based on the hundreds of hard cider apples we grow, the only difference i personally have found is the amount of residual tannins get assigned a name. "Hard" tannins for ciders with lots of tannins and little or no dilution with other apples, and less tannins equate to "Soft" tannins for lower amounts of residual tannins in the cider. 

Chris

CiderSupply.com

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Apr 5, 2022, 2:36:27 PMApr 5
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Hi Michael, i will say based on the Bedan and Bedan Des Partes we grow they are definately different. Also Frequin and Frequin Rouge and Gros Frequin are different also. Metais,  Mettais, and Motais are all the same.
Chris

CiderSupply.com

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Apr 5, 2022, 2:48:27 PMApr 5
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Hi Eric, some of the ciders have Tannic Bitterness and others have a one-of-a-kind taste of Phenolics/polyphenols. I am at a loss as to how this can verbally described well, but it is consistently in many French and English cider apples and others not.  All i must say is you would probably have to try two ciders side by side to get a minds-eye taste understanding. Too much is overpowering but a little is often greatly appreciated by many cider drinkers. To date i have not found any North American apples with it nor can develop it after aging. 

Possibly someone has a better explanation of the Phenolic/Polyphenol flavor/aromatics?

chris

Andrew Lea

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Apr 5, 2022, 3:07:53 PMApr 5
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Chris

That’s not the way the terms are used here in the UK. Hard tannins are bitter while soft tannins are astringent. The taste perception can be quite different even when the measured “tannin” levels are exactly the same. The explanation is down to molecular size distribution as shown in my slides.  That’s what our cider orchardists mean on this side of the pond!  

Also as bittersweet ciders or red wines age, their tannins grow larger so they become softer to the palate. 

Andrew 

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Wittenham Hill Cider Page

On 5 Apr 2022, at 19:33, CiderSupply.com <cryl...@comcast.net> wrote:

There may be some molecular difference that exists, but for me based on the hundreds of hard cider apples we grow, the only difference i personally have found is the amount of residual tannins get assigned a name. "Hard" tannins for ciders with lots of tannins and little or no dilution with other apples, and less tannins equate to "Soft" tannins for lower amounts of residual tannins in the cider. 

Chris

On Monday, April 4, 2022 at 9:11:26 AM UTC-7 Andrew Lea wrote:

Some talk about "Hard" and "Soft" tannins and I know there's a mouthfeel difference, but I may have them backward in my head.  Can you or someone help straighten me out with what is considered a hard tannin and what is considered soft?

See my presentation here slides 10 - 12.  http://www.cider.org.uk/phenolics_in_cider_apples.pdf

Andrew

Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

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CiderSupply.com

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Apr 6, 2022, 1:55:45 AMApr 6
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Hi Andrew, Thanks i think that helps me. This is probably a matrix of related factors, but trying to generalize is difficult for me. Because when making single varietal ciders from high tannin apples like Vilbere, Mettais, and Amerde Berthcourt, some will have overpowering hard bitter tannins with very high astringency "the drying of the tongue sensation", and others are seemingly just as bitter but clearly are missing the astringency. The same has been true for low tannin single varietal ciders, most have no astringency but some are very high with it. My perception as far as post ferment flavor profiles is that astringency seems not completely linked to tannin levels. I think that one of the complications is that in the US and UK apples have two categories as Bittersweet and Bittersharp, but in France (Hi Claude J.? :-)) they have a category listed as Astringent (not used in the UK and US). Grown here in Maritime Northern PNW WA, Amerde Berthcourt and Dabinett are full bittersweets and, when tasting the survey ciders both the bitterness is high and astringency is very high, so i guess one may say that those are high in Soft Tannins? But it sure doesn't taste soft. Ones with the same high bitter tannins are Brown Snout and Kemerien but after fermentation they do not have any noticeable astringency, just that big bitterness without any real drying astringency. Maybe its similar to the fuzzy relationship between pH and Titratable Acidity levels when talking about tart flavor perception? 

We are going to Skagit Cider festival this Saturday and i hope to chat with Wes at Dragonhead and some other cidermakers after the show, I for sure will break these ciders out and watch and record reactions. 

This project has been a huge learning experience and continues to be so. I hope others on the Cider Workshop can do "Their Cider Flavor Survey 2.0"

Chris Rylands
Renaissance Orchards

Claude Jolicoeur

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Apr 6, 2022, 7:33:12 AMApr 6
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Le mercredi 6 avril 2022 à 01:55:45 UTC-4, CiderSupply.com a écrit :
I think that one of the complications is that in the US and UK apples have two categories as Bittersweet and Bittersharp, but in France (Hi Claude J.? :-)) they have a category listed as Astringent (not used in the UK and US).

First time I hear about this, Chris.
Do you have a reference?

CiderSupply.com

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Apr 6, 2022, 11:53:24 AMApr 6
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Hi Claude, my initial source was some older French text that was translated, but i never book marked it. The other location was here in the cider blending table https://www.ciderschool.com/orcharding/apples/ 
However after pulling it up it is also grouping Astringency and tannins in a juice table. 

English Cider Apple Category System:
  • bittersweet
  • bittersharp
  • sharp
  • sweet

Yes in the link are referencing apples in very similar to the English 

French Cider Apple Category System:
  • sweet
  • bittersweet
  • bitter
  • acidic
In their flavor table they list 
Juice Type Percent of Juice Total
Neutral Base 30-60
Tart 10-20
Aromatic 10-20
Astringent 5-20


So after Andrews explanation, and this table i am thinking that my translation of the French text discussing the French system was referencing Astringency as Tannins of the 'Bitter' line item in the French Cider Apple Category System. The linking between the two are actually not different, but astringency is explaining the flavor properties of Bitter from what i am seeing now.

chris rylands

Claude Jolicoeur

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Apr 6, 2022, 2:21:28 PMApr 6
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Chris,
You'll find a more detailed table for the French classification in my book page 48.
As of the table mentioning "astringent" you reference, from the Cider School website, this would be from the Proulx and Nichols book - not a bad book, but published in the 1980s and not really a reference for French cider apples...
For sure, within the "amère" and "douce-amère" categories, some varieties would show more astringency, while others would show more bitterness, but as far as I know, this has never been systematically classified into different categories.

CiderSupply.com

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Apr 6, 2022, 9:57:16 PMApr 6
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Thanks Claude, i will have a look at your pages. 
chris

will...@gmail.com

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Jun 18, 2022, 9:32:36 PMJun 18
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I do know that Dupont and Bordelet both make non-alcoholic apple juices, and they're imported to the States. Both are quite excellent!

On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 11:54:53 PM UTC-7 CiderSupply.com wrote:
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