Natural Yeast Fermentation

[Mark Rudge]

Hi,

I have been making cider for 5 years now and have always played 'safe' by adding yeast after sulphiting. This year I have decided not to add yeast (to try and improve the flavour profile) and let the natural yeasts do their thing. I have sulphited as usual using the levels in Andrew Lea's Book but after 2.5 weeks there is still no activity. There has been some mould forming on the top which I have removed.

I appreciate the natural process is slower, which I like, but I am feeling anxious - and possibly the time has come to pitch in yeast.

Advice on leaving, stirrring, etc much appreciated!

Regards

Mark

[Andrew Lea]

On 26/10/2016 09:49, Mark Rudge wrote:

> I have sulphited as usual using the levels in
> Andrew Lea's Book but after 2.5 weeks there is still no activity.

For wild yeast fermentation my book recommends half the usual dose of
sulphite. Is this what you did?

Andrew

--
near Oxford, UK
Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

[Ray Blockley]

Hi Mark, 

I'm the "other way round" if you like - I usually use directed wild yeast but this year I'm over 3 weeks in, using lower / revised half-dose of SO2 than usual (thanks to Andrew's help with my rubbish maths!), with zero activity and having to repeatedly scoop off white dots of mould. I even popped down the supermarket yesterday to buy a small plastic sieve to make this job easier... 

I spent some time reading through all the archive posts about yeast strains for cider JIC I have to intervene & pitch, plus the online yeast info from makers & suppliers - but that has confused me even more. 

Ray.   

  

--
--
Visit our website: http://www.ciderworkshop.com
 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Cider Workshop" Google Group.
By joining the Cider Workshop, you agree to abide by our principles. Please see http://www.ciderworkshop.com/resources_principles.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Cider Workshop" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cider-workshop+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to cider-workshop@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Andrew Lea]

On 26/10/2016 09:57, Ray Blockley wrote:
>
> I'm the "other way round" if you like - I usually use directed wild
> yeast but this year I'm over 3 weeks in, using lower / revised half-dose
> of SO2 than usual (thanks to Andrew's help with my rubbish maths!), with
> zero activity

Well that's all very odd. I'm not making any cider myself this year so I
can't contribute any personal anecdotes to this. But unless you gave
your whole cider house a super deep clean this year it's hard to see why
it wouldn't work as usual. It is generally believed that most of the
Saccharomyces reside on the press racks and cloths. The apiculate yeasts
which kick things off do come from the fruit, though. Maybe some
environmental factor means the apiculates have developed less well than
usual?

Of course it could be my maths which is rubbish ;-) I hope not.

[Mark Rudge]

Ah.....oops...no. I'm guessing that would be it!

Should I wait to see?....I'm reminded of my keeved cider last year which I sulphited but it worked amazingly well...after some time.

Thanks

[Andrew Lea]

Just hang on in there. The Saccharomyces cells will be multiplying but from a low base. You are maybe looking at a factor of around 10,000 times replication. That's a Big Ask. You may need to take the dots of mould off while you wait. You could perhaps bring some of the liquid into a warmer place to speed up yeast growth and to convince yourself that all is well. That liquid can be added back into the bulk. 

Andrew 

Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

--

--
Visit our website: http://www.ciderworkshop.com
 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Cider Workshop" Google Group.
By joining the Cider Workshop, you agree to abide by our principles. Please see http://www.ciderworkshop.com/resources_principles.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Cider Workshop" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to cider-w...@googlegroups.com.

[Ray Blockley]

Haha! No Andrew - I do not doubt your maths - but always doubt my own! :-) 

I did indeed give the cider sheds a good clean (twice - end of last year & start of this season) as an imminent inspection by the Food Police is due... The cloths just got their usual low-temp machine wash with no detergent - but by using HDPE racks there is little chance of any yeast cells surviving on them after cleaning those, I'd have thought...? 

As to apiculate yeasts, I've been pressing a mix of hand-picked dessert fruit from a local commercial orchard, plus hand-picked & floor-gathered cider fruit from Herefordshire, as well as donated fruit from local gardens (mainly cookers) to balance the acidity; they are all washed in plain tap water (not sanitised) - so I'd have hoped that much of the diverse microbes would have survived to the juice. My pH meter is chekced daily against a pH Solution so I'm sure the SO2 doses are accurate.    

As my shed is in a cold & shaded spot, it has been very cool in there with my min/max thermometer never reading more than 10C for the past couple of weeks - so I have plugged in my little "anti-freeze" oil-filled radiator to raise the temp to about 12C or so to see if a bit of warmth may speed things along.  

I'm not giving up just yet but I'm starting to lose all my fingernails... ;-) 

Ray. 

--
--
Visit our website: http://www.ciderworkshop.com

You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Cider Workshop"  Google Group.
By joining the Cider Workshop, you agree to abide by our principles. Please see http://www.ciderworkshop.com/resources_principles.html
--- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Cider Workshop" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cider-workshop+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send an email to cider-w...@googlegroups.com.

[Andrew Lea]

Could just be a 'combination of circumstances' then ;-)

Your point about HDPE racks is one I have often wondered about too. On
the face of it they would seem less likely to harbour yeasts than wood.
Certainly they have no deep pores. But is the surface really as smooth
as it seems when you get down to the micron level? And it does appear
that some yeast cell walls can be quite "hydrophobic", in other words
they could stick to the HDPE to a degree. Many microbes like to cling to
surfaces. It would be interesting to take some swabs and plate them up
in a lab to see what's there. (Some studies of plastic chopping boards
in kitchens have shown that post rinsing they still harbour as many
bacteria as wooden boards, even more so in those cases where some woods
may have inherent anti-bacterial properties.)

But 3 weeks in, I'd expect things to take off for you pretty soon. While
you still have some fingernails!

Andrew

> www.cider.org.uk <http://www.cider.org.uk>

>
> --
> --
> Visit our website: http://www.ciderworkshop.com
>
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Cider
> Workshop" Google Group.
> By joining the Cider Workshop, you agree to abide by our principles.
> Please see http://www.ciderworkshop.com/resources_principles.html
> <http://www.ciderworkshop.com/resources_principles.html>
> --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the
> Google Groups "Cider Workshop" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,

> send an email to cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:cider-workshop%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>.

> To post to this group, send an email to
> cider-w...@googlegroups.com

> <mailto:cider-w...@googlegroups.com>.

>
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout

> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>.

>
>
> --
> --
> Visit our website: http://www.ciderworkshop.com
>
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Cider
> Workshop" Google Group.
> By joining the Cider Workshop, you agree to abide by our principles.
> Please see http://www.ciderworkshop.com/resources_principles.html
> ---
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "Cider Workshop" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send

> an email to cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com>.
> To post to this group, send email to cider-w...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:cider-w...@googlegroups.com>.

> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Ray Blockley]

Update: just back in from the shed.

HDPE racks: where the s/steel frame sits there is now a definite square-ish pattern of scrapes / scratches that you can see & feel. Plus the wax(?) / tannins (?) from the apple skins builds up a definite mesh-pattern on the surface of the racks which will not wash off without scrubbing & some form of cleanser. Hopefully one of these will form a 'home' for some yeasts particularly the marks from the frame...

Mould spots: Just removed another lot. About 5-10mm diameter, white fluffy surface with a larger gelatinous globe shaped underside. Interestingly, the large Vigo airlocks where these are present appear to be showing that air is being "pulled" into the fermenter? The inner level much higher than the outer. Could this be the mould using up the air inside? As ambient inside the shed is now a steady 14C, I can't imagine it being a drop in temp causing the air inside the fermenters to contract. And yes, they are all airtight as far as I can tell.

Bottom line: If all else fails & I have to pitch - & I don't want to use any Killer yeasts or EC1118 or Bayanus strains - can I ask what you'd recommend Andrew, for a mix of dessert & cider fruit where I went to emulate as close to a natural wild ferment as possible? In the old days I used to pop down the road to the chemist or home brew shop & pick up a small tub of general purpose S. c. wine yeast - but all they seem to stock now are turbo yeasts & Bayanus strains.

Thanks.

Ray

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le mercredi 26 octobre 2016 08:09:33 UTC-4, Ray a écrit :

Bottom line: If all else fails & I have to pitch - & I don't want to use any Killer yeasts or EC1118 or Bayanus strains

The Lalvin 71B yeast is, according to the data sheet, sensitive to the killer factor. Could be an interesting avenue for testing.

Claude

[Andrew Lea]

On 26/10/2016 13:09, Ray Blockley wrote:

> Interestingly, the large Vigo airlocks where these are present appear to
> be showing that air is being "pulled" into the fermenter? The inner
> level much higher than the outer. Could this be the mould using up the
> air inside?

Interesting. Maybe. But there's only a few surface spots of mould. Yeast
in the body of the juice will take up air too, as they are multiplying.
Nowadays (with wild yeasts) I never fill my airlocks during the aerobic
phase. I leave them empty to keep the insects out, but allow free access
to air until fermentation is well under way. Only then do I fill them
with liquid.

> Bottom line: If all else fails & I have to pitch - & I don't want to use
> any Killer yeasts or EC1118 or Bayanus strains - can I ask what you'd
> recommend Andrew, for a mix of dessert & cider fruit where I went to
> emulate as close to a natural wild ferment as possible?

That's a toughie. I'd say ideally to try the new Lallemand Biodiva which
is a Torulopsis sp (not Saccharomyces). But AFAIK it isn't available ex
stock in the UK so by the time you'd got it over here probably
everything would have taken off by itself anyway! It needs a
Saccharomyces to finish with it but we are assuming you have them wild
anyway and they're just taking time to multiply.

Otherwise there is 71B as Claude says. I see that Vigopresses now have
QA23 in stock which is a nice one I think
http://www.vigopresses.co.uk/Catalogue/Yeast-and-Chemicals/Yeast-125g-Lalvin-Q23-94418
(and is also recommended to couple with the Biodiva). Otherwise D47,
DV10 or K1 V1116?

[Ray Blockley]

Thank you Andrew & Claude for that info. I will sit on my hands for a bit longer but also check out those recommendations.

Ray.

--
--
Visit our website: http://www.ciderworkshop.com

You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Cider Workshop"  Google Group.
By joining the Cider Workshop, you agree to abide by our principles. Please see http://www.ciderworkshop.com/resources_principles.html
--- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Cider Workshop" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cider-workshop+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send an email to cider-w...@googlegroups.com.

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le mercredi 26 octobre 2016 09:33:28 UTC-4, Ray a écrit :

Thank you Andrew & Claude for that info. I will sit on my hands for a bit longer but also check out those recommendations.

Ray, there is always that other option that has been mentioned a few times on this forum: take a sample of a few gallons of your must and bring it inside at higher temperature. This should start faster and you can then use it to inoculate the rest of the cuvée.
Claude

[Ray Blockley]

> Ray, there is always that other option that has been mentioned a few times on this forum: take a sample of a few gallons of your must and bring it inside at higher temperature. This should start faster and you can then use it to inoculate the rest of the cuvée.
> Claude

Thanks, Claude. Yes this is one of the options Gail & I were discussing over the weekend; I posted a query about the possibility of a dominant yeast strain from one batch overtaking & 'swamping' the benefits of any succession of yeasts strains / types. If needs must (no pun intended) it is one of the routes I'll consider.
Ray.

[eaglewolfff]

Well, I honestly don't know whether my way of doing things is right or wrong, but my cider shed is open on three sides and I never wash it out. I do wash the press and pressing cloths (hessian) after each pressing with cold water, but that's it. I never sterilise anything - just wash them eye-clean - and I don't seem to have any problems. My second batch is fermenting now in a stainless steel tank with just a tarp tied over the top and I will transfer it soon into 6 gallon fermenters under airlocks (all just washed out with cold water) and then put in the next pressing. Am I blessed or just plain lucky?

[Ray Blockley]

My EHO (Food Police) would shut me down for that... Enjoy the freedom.

Ray.

On 26 Oct 2016 18:44, "eaglewolfff" <atin...@gmail.com> wrote:

Well, I honestly don't know whether my way of doing things is right or wrong,  but my cider shed is open on three sides and I never wash it out. I do wash the press and pressing cloths (hessian) after each pressing with cold water, but that's it. I never sterilise anything - just wash them eye-clean - and I don't seem to have any problems.  My second batch is fermenting now in a stainless steel tank with just a tarp tied over the top and I will transfer it soon into 6 gallon fermenters under airlocks (all just washed out with cold water) and then put in the next pressing.  Am I blessed or just plain lucky?

--
--
Visit our website: http://www.ciderworkshop.com

You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Cider Workshop"  Google Group.
By joining the Cider Workshop, you agree to abide by our principles. Please see http://www.ciderworkshop.com/resources_principles.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Cider Workshop" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cider-workshop+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send an email to cider-workshop@googlegroups.com.

[eaglewolfff]

All I can say is (to misquote Dickens) that the food police is an ass. Thankfully, I and my family - who drink the most of my cider - and the few guests I entertain, who want to drink a natural product uncontaminated by chemicals don't suffer any ill effects from my brew and seem to enjoy it (I wish they didn't - I'm drank dry now, except for the Christmas stash - bottled early to give a bit of Christmas fizz!

[Max Nowell]

Is there anyone else making cider near you, Ray?  Maybe you could pinch some of their fermenting juice and pitch it into yours to kick-start it? This isn't a problem i've experienced, but then my methods are much closer to eaglewolff's. Penny washes all our fruit in plain water, but thorough as she is, even she can't remove all the yeast, and it takes off ok, (no sulphite).

[Bartek Knapek]

It is sometimes the case that the juices I press become completely
clear in a day or two after pressing - see attached.
It stays like this until the fermentation starts - then they become
cloudy again.

Does it have the same effect as keeving?
I mean the juice is obviously visually clear, but is it also depleted of
nutrients, etc.?



/Bartek

[PHILIP ATKINSON]

I bought some of these plastic corks specifically for 750mL bottles ... they look good, but they trap air and pop out slightly after insertion. Is there a trick to using them or is that just what they do?

[Claude Jolicoeur]

As far as I can see, these plastic stoppers are meant to be used with wire cages to keep them in place.
This would certainly prevent them from popping out.
Claude

[Ray Blockley]

Used to use very similar corks for wine - we used a thin length of suitably shaped fine piano wire (from a model making shop) inside the 750ml bottle neck. This allowed most of the trapped air to escape while pushing the cork home, then withdrawing the wire before the last shove on the cork. Not sure if that idea is  any use but it worked for us.

Ray.

On 12 Nov 2016 23:30, "PHILIP ATKINSON" <tb...@shaw.ca> wrote:

I bought some of these plastic corks specifically for 750mL bottles ... they look good, but they trap air and pop out slightly after insertion. Is there a trick to using them or is that just what they do?

--