Malolactic fermentation
Wilf
the acidity in a few batches of cider (Malocid with I think is made by
Brouland)
In a month the acidity has dropped from 1.4% to 1.2% (from eaters and
cookers) (ph <02.8)
I don’t have the label with me but it did state that optimum
conditions for inoculation were well a ph of about 3 or 3.2 anyway so
I am wondering whether this is an acceptable performance from the
product and can anyone comment as to whether it will drop much more.
This is the first time that I’ve used a cultured bacteria to drop the
acidity.
I was hoping that it would at least get under 1%.
Has anyone else tried using the cultured bacteria.
Curiously the two batches I tested turned out the same result of a
drop from 1.4 to 1.2. I boiled the cider for the test in the microwave
for 40 seconds on full power so I don’t think that there should be any
CO2 left in the cider.
thanks
Wilf
Claude Jolicoeur
> I have recently used some commercial malolactic bacteria to bring down
> the acidity in a few batches of cider (Malocid with I think is made by
> Brouland)
>
> In a month the acidity has dropped from 1.4% to 1.2% (from eaters and
> cookers) (ph <02.8)
me. Maybe you should give it more time?
Patience is the mother of all virtues for a cidermaker!
Claude
Tim
Quote: Patience is the mother of all virtues for a cidermaker!
Claude
You can say that again, I still have barrels fermenting after 7 months, I hope for the malolactic fermentation after that, should be ready to drink shortly after we have made the 2011/2012 vintage.
Tim in Dorset
Claude Jolicoeur
nature is to be in a hurry. It is easier however when you have a few
dozens of cases waiting to be drank - then you are not so much in a
hurray for the current batch to get ready to drink!
Claude
Wilf
statement that it should be over in 2 weeks. I was suprised about the
2 weeks to I thought that a 100% increase in the length of time to
work would be ok.
Its taken 8 months of fermenting to get this far so I'm not in a huge
rush by any means
the gravity is now about 1.004 so I'm thinking about bottling. I don't
think that the gas generated by MLF will produce enough gas for bottle
bombs. (I'm sure that this has been covered somewhere before, just
can't find it)
Wilf
greg l.
experience of your situation. The rate is variable but it's usually
over in a fortnight for me, but I don't test for it so that's just
guessing.
Greg
Carl LeClair
Claude Wrote:
> It is easier however when you have a few
> dozens of cases waiting to be drank - then you are not so much in a
> hurray for the current batch to get ready to drink!
> Claude
I have underestimated my personal requirements of consumption and
gift's my first two years.
Hopefully this season will be better, now that I am in my third year
of production, LOL ;)
If and when you write a book, this should be one your opening
statement's in bold face typeset!
Regards,
Carl
Andrew Lea
> Thanks Claude, I suppose it was a case of raised expectations i.e the
> statement that it should be over in 2 weeks.
Who ever said 2 weeks for complete conversion? In the UK?! In a cool
summer?! With such a low pH?!
Based on my personal experience with a culture, I think 3 months is
nearer the mark. At that rate you are well on track!
Andrew
--
Wittenham Hill Cider Pages
www.cider.org.uk
Andrew Lea
> I don't
> think that the gas generated by MLF will produce enough gas for bottle
> bombs. (I'm sure that this has been covered somewhere before, just
> can't find it)
Yes we have covered this several times. You can calculate the amount of
gas produced and it barely reaches saturation level. So, no bottle bombs!
Dick Dunn
...
> Patience is the mother of all virtues for a cidermaker!
Sorry, but I think the meadmakers already own that one.
--
Dick Dunn rc...@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
greg l.
> nature is to be in a hurry. It is easier however when you have a few
> dozens of cases waiting to be drank - then you are not so much in a
> hurray for the current batch to get ready to drink!
> Claude
cider. The best thing is to make enough so that by the time it is
finished it has had a chance to age.
Greg
Claude Jolicoeur
> > Patience is the mother of all virtues for a cidermaker!
>
> Sorry, but I think the meadmakers already own that one.
can't figure which is the best!!!
I guess both cidermakers and meadmakers can use it then.
Claude
Charlotte Traynor
Sorry to continue a thread when it seems to have died, but...
We very recently did our final racking and blending of last year's cider (a dessert/cooker mix). To our great joy one out of two tanks had undergone a malolactic fermentation and tasted superb. Both have now been blended together and we are considering adding a malolactic culture to ensure a continuing MLF across the 2 blended tanks - I don't think I understand enough about the scientific reaction - but could the blending of the 2 tanks allow the MLF to spread anyway? The tanks are currently in a fairly constant 16 deg. C and we hope to bottle in the next 2 weeks.
pH appears to be 3.2 but I am somewhat dubious about our testing strips so will try to get a more accurate reading soon.
s.g - 1.000 (since this reading we have added about 4% pasteurised juice)
I have never used a ML culture before, so am wondering if there are any possible downsides to using one? Can anyone suggest a supplier? I notice some mentioned Brouwland - is this a good culture?
Thanks,
Charlotte
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Andrew Lea
>
> We very recently did our final racking and blending of last year's
> cider (a dessert/cooker mix). To our great joy one out of two tanks
> had undergone a malolactic fermentation and tasted superb. Both have
> now been blended together and we are considering adding a malolactic
> culture to ensure a continuing MLF across the 2 blended tanks - I
> don't think I understand enough about the scientific reaction - but
> could the blending of the 2 tanks allow the MLF to spread anyway?
> The tanks are currently in a fairly constant 16 deg. C and we hope to
> bottle in the next 2 weeks.
The (I presume wild?) MLF bacteria will likely continue to work if the
batches are blended and if they suddenly come across a new and
unconverted source of malic acid. But you can never be quite sure
because of their cryptic nutrient requirements. How do you know you had
MLF? What did you measure?
>
> I have never used a ML culture before, so am wondering if there are
> any possible downsides to using one? Can anyone suggest a supplier?
> I notice some mentioned Brouwland - is this a good culture?
Brouwland and Vigo sell them (but different brands I think). The limits
are that you need not too low a pH (3.2 should be OK), not too much SO2
(< 25 ppm) and a high temperature (> 17C). The downside of cultures is
that they are all Oenococcus oeni isolated from grape wines which drop
acid but do not introduce the spicy old horse flavour so prized in wild
cider MLF, which are usually conducted by various Lactobaccilli spp.
(Dick Dunn and I have recently been looking at the literature on this in
connection with a parallel discussion on Cider Digest). So the flavour
will not the same as what you get with a wild culture. If you have a
good wild culture already you may like to consider whether you really
want to introduce a rather one-dimensional outsider?
For monitoring, pH is not a sensitive measure of MLF progress. Use
titratable acidity instead. TA should drop to half its original value
once complete (I would give it 3 months in normal UK temperatures).
Andrew
--
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
Charlotte Traynor
We don't have kit for testing TA but are taking a sample to our local lab today and will ask for a reading.
As both tanks were identical to begin with and one is considerably less acid, we assumed a MLF had taken place. It's also worth noting that because we ran out of internal storage these 2 tanks were stored in a form of polytunnel; though not ideal, giving extremes in temperature, it may well have provided the necessary warmth in recent months.
The tank we suspect had undergone a MLF did have a very nicely rounded flavour, so perhaps as you suggest we will wait and hope that a wild MLF will continue rather than adding a 'one dimensional' culture. Neither batch has had any sulphite added either, and it would be our preferred method to keep things as natural as possible!
Like I said we hope to bottle very soon but mature in bottle for at least 3 months so hopefully this will be enough time to see a good progression. Does the size of container bare any significance to a MLF?
Charlotte
Andrew Lea
>
> Like I said we hope to bottle very soon but mature in bottle for at
> least 3 months so hopefully this will be enough time to see a good
> progression. Does the size of container bare any significance to a
> MLF?
I don't think container size is material, except that wild ML bacteria
often tend to cling to surfaces especially porous ones such as wood. So,
other things being equal, MLF might go faster in a smaller container?
Not sure that glass is sufficiently clingy for this effect though.
It is 98 years now since the classic paper by Muller-Thurgau and
Osterwalder from the research station at Wadenswil in Switzerland which
first explained what happens in MLF and the role of lactic acid bacteria
in the conversion. Up to that time the spring 'secondary fermentation'
had been a great mystery to wine- and cider-makers. Hats off, Ladies and
Gentlemen! Magic gives way to Science!
Andrew
--
Wittenham Hill Cider Pages
www.cider.org.uk
greg l.
uncertainty of hoping for a wild infection is not good if you want a
consistent product. The difference between MLF/no MLF is much greater
than the difference between a wild/cultured MLF. Then there is the
uncertainty of off-flavours from a undesirable strain of bacteria.
Also while hoping for MLF the cider is not protected by SO2, the
sooner MLF can be finished the sooner SO2 can be used. If the MLF
happens in-bottle you may get a very inconsistent product. There are a
lot of factors to consider.
Greg
On Jun 27, 8:10 pm, Charlotte Traynor <charlottetray...@gmail.com>
wrote:
Andrew Lea
>>
> This shows one of the advantages of using a MLF culture. The
> uncertainty of hoping for a wild infection is not good if you want a
> consistent product. The difference between MLF/no MLF is much
> greater than the difference between a wild/cultured MLF.
With respect, Greg, that is not true at all in bittersweet ciders and
you are speaking as a winemaker :-) All the commercial cultures are O.
oeni which only drops acid and doesn't provide the 'old horse' flavour
which is highly prized in ciders here, though no doubt an 'off-flavour'
to you! For that you need Lactobacilli.
As I said, Dick and I have been reviewing all the literature on
this topic (and the associated Brett issue). I plan to write a little
essay on this and post it on my website at some point since there is so
much misunderstanding out there in respect of what happens in cider as
compared to grape wine.
Andrew
--
Wittenham Hill Cider Pages
www.cider.org.uk
greg l.
> you are speaking as a winemaker :-) All the commercial cultures are O.
> oeni which only drops acid and doesn't provide the 'old horse' flavour
> which is highly prized in ciders here, though no doubt an 'off-flavour'
> to you! For that you need Lactobacilli.
MLF. I have met very successful winemakers who refuse to use cultures
because they perceive the flavour development to be superior with wild
MLF. But I would dispute "only drops acid". In my experience MLF
culture does more than that, it seems to improve body and flavour
complexity in my ciders. To quote a well respected cider authority -
"Desirable strains of these bacteria also soften and round the cider
by producing new flavour compounds . It is now possible to buy
various strains of ML bacteria commercially and add them to the cider,
rather than waiting for them to work of their own accord."
I do admit it is very difficult for someone trained in the wine
industry to appreciate "old horse flavour", I'm not sure that is
something I want to learn appreciation for. In Australia we have the
"brett police" who seek out and expose taints such as that.
Greg
Andrew Lea
> But I would dispute "only drops acid". In my experience MLF
> culture does more than that, it seems to improve body and flavour
> complexity in my ciders.
Yes indeed it does, and so I have written, but also in some senses the
cultures make for a more vinous and less cidery cider than a good wild
MLF. (Though I got first prize twice running at Bath and West for my
culture treated cider so why am I complaining?) The problem as you point
out is getting a good one. There are not (yet?) any Lactobacilli
cultures on the market for this purpose AFAIK, only Oenococcus. It would
not be rocket science to screen and select them (obviously avoiding
those with mouse and acetification pathways), if the market were there;
they already exist in research labs. Then we could get reliable 'old
horse' and acid reduction without the downsides!
>
> I do admit it is very difficult for someone trained in the wine
> industry to appreciate "old horse flavour", I'm not sure that is
> something I want to learn appreciation for. In Australia we have the
> "brett police" who seek out and expose taints such as that.
Context is all, I think! One man's taint is another man's USP. There are
no absolutes here. 'Old horse' is a sign of quality in bittersweet
ciders but not in New World wines (though different in eg Beaujolais!).
'Mouse' is highly undesirable in wines and ciders but well appreciated
in bread and cask beer. Diacetyl is anethema to brewers but prized by
wine- and cider-makers. Dimethyl sulphide is good in baked beans,
sweetcorn and tomatoes but not in most fermented drinks. I could go on
and on.... ;-)
Andrew
--
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
Charlotte Traynor
I am surprised that Lactobacilli cultures are not readily available, I know brewers in Europe that use them every year - but the building and wood throughout is all inoculated with it so no need to buy in the culture! Having spent a bit of time Googling it just now (probably a bit too long...) I've noticed some Lactobacillus packets (one that keeps cropping up is the Wyeast 5335), but this is only spoken about in the context of beer and sounds like it is a starter yeast...
The other common ML cultures seem either to be comprised of Oenococcus or Leuconostoc oenos - is there a distinct difference between the qualities these will produce?
Chartlotte
Andrew Lea
> I've noticed some Lactobacillus packets
> (one that keeps cropping up is the Wyeast 5335), but this is only
> spoken about in the context of beer and sounds like it is a starter
> yeast...
No it's not a yeast, it is a 'lactic' used to make lambic beer. I wonder
what species it is - Wyeast are always very poor on the specifics. And
does it have the 'old horse' pathway, I wonder? Lactics in lambic beers
are mainly Pediococcus not lactobacilli and of course produce lactic and
acetic acid from sugars not from malate, so they have been selected for
something rather different. Much as the lactobacilli used to make
yoghurt or sourdough bread probably wouldn't do too much good in cider.
Tantalising thought, though I personally feel much about the flavour of
lambic beer and sourdough bread as Greg does about 'old horse' in cider ;-)
>
> The other common ML cultures seem either to be comprised of
> Oenococcus or Leuconostoc oenos - is there a distinct difference
> between the qualities these will produce?
Those are the ones selected from and intended for wines. Oenococcus and
Leuconostoc are synonyms I'm afraid - Oenococcus is the new name for
Leuconostoc and the very name gives the game away! There may be
different strains available but fundamentally they all do what Greg and
I have described. They don't make 'old horse' though!
Andrew
Thomas Hart
http://www.wyeastlab.com/com-lambic-brewing.cfm
-Tom
Charlotte Traynor
Think I'll wait for the TA and pH from the lab and then make my best scientifically informed decision (^_^)
Thanks again Andrew, I know it's been said many times before, but I really appreciate the effort you put into these threads (not to mention the patience!); I'm sure it is breeding a much more informed generation of cidermakers - and I think everyone appreciates more good cider being made!
Thomas Hart
-Tom
greg l.
> no absolutes here. 'Old horse' is a sign of quality in bittersweet
> ciders but not in New World wines (though different in eg Beaujolais!).
> 'Mouse' is highly undesirable in wines and ciders but well appreciated
> in bread and cask beer. Diacetyl is anethema to brewers but prized by
> wine- and cider-makers. Dimethyl sulphide is good in baked beans,
> sweetcorn and tomatoes but not in most fermented drinks. I could go on
> and on.... ;-
love to try it.
I wonder how much variation there is in native LAB populations. It may
be that a wild MLF in Australia gives a quite different result from
England. There is a general view that wineries or ciderhouses build up
yeast and bacteria populations over time that so that wild
fermentations become easier. Not so good if you are trying to get rid
of brett.
Whatever, I don't think there is much value for other people in
different countries to try and reproduce an English craft cider,
better for your cider to be an expression of your own conditions.
It's funny that beer brewers use cultured brett for certain styles of
beer, I can't imagine doing that but it seems to be quite popular.
Greg