boucheuse/corking machine 29 mm - suggestions for second hand models

[Frantisek Algoldor Apfelbeck]

Greetings,
I hope I'm not overstepping the "buy/sell" policies by this post, however I need technical info to point me in the right direction for both which machine to look for and where. I would like to buy second hand corking machine, boucheuse, which would allow me to do the 29 mm corks/bouchons. I'm based in France and I'm trying to find any links which would lead me to the goal. To my knowledge, but I'm not 100% sure, only semi-automatic electric or pneumatic machines have enough power to do this diameter. However I wonder if some old manual machines from Champagne region don't have the capacity too? I'm using the biggest portal for online second hand sale in France, which translate into "good corner" or something like and which you can easily find. However my issue is that people selling mostly do not know if the machine has the capacity for 29 mm and they do not share the manufacturer and model so I can't check. 
If you would have some idea where to search for more info that would be great. I checked new machines but if I'm correct they cost over 2 000 eu or so, I can not go really over 1 500 eu. My last option could be professional mobile bottling service but they generally come for more than 5 000x bottles and that is exactly my limit.

I would like to use the 29 mm to have a product which has luxury touch into it and which ensures long lasting quality, I would like to "age" some of my ciders for several years or more.

Sorry for bit "generic" and long question but I've formulated as well as I could after whole day of manual work.

Thank you,
Frantisek

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Any reason not to use a manual boucheuse?

I know cider makers who use them for up to 10 000 bottles a year. It is more hard work, but could be an interim solution.

See this page from my web site:

http://www.cjoliprsf.ca/bouteilbouchon.htm

[Frantisek Algoldor Apfelbeck]

Hello Claude,

when I've asked here in the Normandie region, I've been told, including really experienced people, that manual machines available in the area are not capable of doing 29 mm. I'm using regularly semi-professional boucheuse (I have to look for the mark but it is the classic here) which does 26 mm and 27 mm. However you can directly feel that 27 mm is way harder to get in than 26 and my friend who I borrowed it from is already quite unhappy with the 27 mm being used on it. When I've asked on the SIVAL the vendors of the new manual boucheuses, professional or semi-professional models, between 2 500 to 4 500 eu, they told me that they do not do 29 mm either, that is what I've been told (lovely machines by the way). So I do not really know. I have been told it is not "possible" on the standard machines and that I need semi-automatic options. It seems to me strange because I would expect it should be possible to compress the 29 mm cork  (or 30-30.5 mm the true Champaign as you write in your manual)  manually and there should be some older machines used in Champaign region but I do not know.

I'm having major issue to get really clear and sure info on this, however the profi people in the region insist on need for semi-automatic electric or pneumatic machines.

Thank you for your info, I'll try to continue my quest.

Sincerely,

Frantisek

[Bartek Knapek]

I am using a manual Ferrari model:

From y experience, it works for 30,5mm, e.g. following:

But I have never exceeded 20-30 bottles during one operation.. :)

//Bartek

W dniu 03.03.2021 o 13:21, 'Frantisek Algoldor Apfelbeck' via Cider Workshop pisze:

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[Nicholas Bradstock]

Just a thought...

Perhaps the difference lies in the average bore of the mouth of the champagne bottles made at the time that manual boucheuses were in use - from old times until say les années 60 when I joined the cider industry and saw such machines in daily use,

Apart from the actual intended diameter, the range of measurements might have varied much more in those days when, today, a bottle is made to a very tight standard- as it must be to accept a crown cap.

A visit to a cider museum might be helpful to explain the apparent anomaly 

Good luck

Nick

iPhone

On 3 Mar 2021, at 12:52, Bartek Knapek <cy...@knapek.pl> wrote:



I am using a manual Ferrari model:

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From y experience, it works for 30,5mm, e.g. following:

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To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cider-workshop/e27471c4-c29e-0d37-b6be-4ee6a3830873%40knapek.pl.

[Frantisek Algoldor Apfelbeck]

Thank you very much Bartek and Nick. I've found info on the machine which I borrowed from my friend and which I can buy in the region second hand. It is Rapid N°11, produced in Switzerland which I did not know. If the Ferrari model can do 30.5 this one should be able too. However I need to do around 7 000 bottles. Last year I did 7 000x with 27 mm and it worked out.
I think Nick one thing which should be crucial, at least I've been told, is the quality and quantity of the jaws/mâchoires. The Rapid 11 has three solid ones, I think it is bronz but not sure and I've seen some old higher quality machines sold in Champaign region which had four jaws.

Anyway I'm trying to do some more reading about this but of course the best would be if I could test the machine directly with 29 mm corks, I hope to get my hands on some before the weekend.

Many thanks,
Sincerely,
Frantisek

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Frantisek,

If you go the the website for the Rapid boucheuses (http://www.elvamac.ch/boucheuses/), there doesn't seem to be a #11 anymore, but there is a #15 which is a standard wine cork corker, and for a max cork diameter of 26mm. This is probably similar to what you have.

But if you scroll down the page, you'll see sturdier machines designed for champagne corks, and with an optional attachment for the wire cage. I am quite sure these (eg. models 54, 55) can take up to 31,5mm champagne corks.

Well in fact I know a producer here in Quebec who does a Methode traditionnelle with his ciders with the 31mm corks, and who uses one of these Elvamac corkers. They are expensive though...

[Nicholas Bradstock]

Hi Frantisek

Re the number of ‘jaws’ in the machines - I can’t remember how many there were in the vintage machines I recall in use in 1965 but I would think it was 4 - as in the manual machines I have seen since.  The Italian machine we bought 3 yrs ago from Vigo Presses in the UK has 4 and works well, but we now only use 26mm synthetic plastic (food grade) corks and not 29mm champagne types.  We have tried bottle fermenting to >6 bar in ca.900gm (modern!) bottles but came to the conclusion it was not worth the bother and now stop at 3 bar.  The flavour profile for our Somerset bittersweet cider is better too at the lower pressure.

It’s worth noting that we had no problems with 26mm corks even at the higher than 3bar pressures.

4 jaws should be more efficient than 3 since the load is more evenly spread and so require less effort.  it might be worth also trying some lubrication of the jaw mechanism - any surfaces close and which might come into contact with the cork itself might be best lubricated with olive- or sunflower- oil....

Good luck 

Nick

iPad

On 3 Mar 2021, at 18:01, 'Frantisek Algoldor Apfelbeck' via Cider Workshop <cider-w...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Thank you very much Bartek and Nick. I've found info on the machine which I borrowed from my friend and which I can buy in the region second hand. It is Rapid N°11, produced in Switzerland which I did not know. If the Ferrari model can do 30.5 this one should be able too. However I need to do around 7 000 bottles. Last year I did 7 000x with 27 mm and it worked out.

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cider-workshop/895821f5-7320-4cb8-a5d2-cee8d2f22954n%40googlegroups.com.

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[Frantisek Algoldor Apfelbeck]

Thank you all for help. After checking the info on Elvamac pages and seeing the price starting (by other distributors) around 1400 eu before tax I may have to stick to 27 mm this year. I do not give up yet but I would like to start bottling on 12th or 13th of March and with ordering the bouchons it is starting to get tight.
I've also checked on another brand which was mentioned before I think "Mundial" but when I asked directly Frin they did not recommended for 29 mm and up. It has four jaws and it seems to have the capacity but they insisted it is not for this size and quantity which I want. The price was around 250 eu I think, we have it in place where I work.
Many thanks, for all the info, I'll let you know later how my bottling ended, of course if someone has some information I'll be happy to read it.
Sincerely,
Frantisek