first experiments, first hello
Gyuri
I've been following the discussions for a while, but this is my very
first post here. Easy on me please.:)
I'd like to do my first steps in cider making next weekend. I know
it's late, it's cold. I'd rather consider it chemical experiment at
this stage. The goal is to gain some experience by next Autumn. If the
result is drinkable, I'd be more than happy.
I'd like to get 150 kg apples. Unfortunately I only have dessert
apples available: Golden, Jonagold and Idared. I know it isn't ideal,
but that's available in January here. In long term I'm planning to
find the best local varieties, but it needs time since cider making
isn't part of our culture.
After pressing I'd like to do the usual measures (SG, pH and maybe
acidity), just to see how they work. I'd like to buy some 10l (2.2
gallon) vessels.
Add the basic things to the juice, like pectolytic enzyme, sulphur
dioxide and cultured wine yeast. Maybe I'll fine tune acidity and add
some tannin to some vessels.
How does this plan sound to you? Which type of apple would you buy?
What do you think does it worth the time and energy to blend them or
they have just similar character?
Is 10l vessel appropriate in size as a "test tube"?
Thanks,
Gyuri
Andrew Lea
> I'd like to do my first steps in cider making next weekend. I know
> it's late, it's cold. I'd rather consider it chemical experiment at
> this stage. The goal is to gain some experience by next Autumn. If the
> result is drinkable, I'd be more than happy.
>
> I'd like to get 150 kg apples. Unfortunately I only have dessert
> apples available: Golden, Jonagold and Idared. I know it isn't ideal,
> but that's available in January here. In long term I'm planning to
> find the best local varieties, but it needs time since cider making
> isn't part of our culture.
Welcome to the group! Where is 'here' for you? Which country are you in?
Many people say that Jonagold can be surprisingly successful for cider.
Idared and Golden Delicious do not ripen easily here in the UK, but of
the two I think Idared would probably be better for cider. Mature
Goldens can be difficult to press and may not have much acid. I think
all 3 will come out quite different. Can you try all 3 as separate
varieties? And as a blend as well? 10L is plenty for test purposes.
Good Luck!
Andrew
--
Cider Workshop Website
www.ciderworkshop.com
Andrew's Website
www.cider.org.uk
Claude Jolicoeur
> I'd like to get 150 kg apples. Unfortunately I only have dessert
> apples available: Golden, Jonagold and Idared. I know it isn't ideal,
> but that's available in January here.
From what I know of the 3 varieties:
Idared, high acidity and medium-high SG
Golden Delicious, medium acidity, medium-low SG
Jonagold, never tested, but as Andrew said, there are reports saying
it is quite good for cider.
Suitability of an apple for cider varies a lot with factors like how
and where it has been grown. You may get large variations in SG and
acidity. But probably Idared will be too sharp by itself but would
make a good blend with Golden Delidious. Then Jonagold could be tried
by itself. So I would probably make 2 batches, one 50-50 Idared-
Golden, and one Jonagold SV. And at bottling, I would probably blend
together a part of each into a 50-25-25 blend - you would then have 3
different blends to taste.
Ideally however, if you could get a sample of juice from each variety
before buying your 150 kg, you could then measure SG and acidity, and
from this, plan your blend. We would be happy to help.
With 150 kg, you will get a good 80 litres of juice - this is a large
amount for a first trial - you could settle for less.
For a first trial, I wouldn't suggest to play with acidity and tanin -
there is no reason why the cider wouldn't be OK naturally. I did my 10
first years of cidermaking without any significant amount of tanic
apples in the cider and it was nevertheless very good.
About the material you will need, don't forget a racking tube. For
each batch you will need a large plastic bucket for primary
fermentation, and ideally, a glass carboy (plastic is also possible)
with an airlock for secondary and maturation. These carboys are
available in 3, 5 and 6 US gallons (appx 11, 19 and 23 litres) - the
least expensive being the 19 L size, and I also find this size the
most useful. If you make 80 L, you could have 4 of those.
Claude
Rudy Petershofer
>Hi,
>
>I've been following the discussions for a while, but this is my very
>first post here. Easy on me please.:)
>
>I'd like to do my first steps in cider making next weekend. I know
>it's late, it's cold. I'd rather consider it chemical experiment at
>this stage. The goal is to gain some experience by next Autumn. If the
>result is drinkable, I'd be more than happy.
Hi Gyuri,
Like you, I am new to the group and new to cider making. I'm still stunned
that I'm able to benefit from the wisdom of Andrew Lea, Claude Jolicoeur
and many others on a daily basis. I started making cider in August after
buying two 24 litre buckets of delicious, freshly pressed and UV
pasteurized juice from two brothers in Clarington, Ontario. They run a
press that their Swiss grandfather started many years ago. My 18th and
19th 24L batches are currently fermenting. The goal was to build up an
inventory that could age properly (well that was the theory). Along the
way I've read the books by Andrew Lea (the gospel), Ben Watson, Annie
Proulx and Simon McKie. They've all been great reading and I highly
recommend them.
The varieties used have been various combinations of Macintosh, Golden
Russet, Northern Spy, Empire, Greening and Mutsu. I'm not sure that the
combination of Mac and Spy would meet with the approval of most cider
purists, but I salivate in anticipation of the tartness and fruitiness and
that combination.
Also like, you, I expect to experiment with acidity and tannin. At the
moment I'm playing with yeast. I recently finished three batches each one
using a different yeast. Until now, I've used Lavlin E-1118 for all my
batches. I understand it to be a champagne yeast. However, I've often
found that the champagne taste tends to overpower the fruitiness of the
cider. For the three test batches I used Lavlin E-1118, Wyeast English
Cider yeast (4766) and Wyeast Sweet Mead yeast (4184). I won't know the
results for a few months but I confess to sneaking a taste during racking
and they are distinctly different. The cider yeast batch is delightfully
"apply", the mead yeast batch is very "mellow" and the E-1118 somehow
tastes more "sophisticated" but it has sulphur overtones initially. Based
on my brief experience, I'd encourage you to add yeast variety, as a
variable, to your experiments.
Rudy Petershofer
Markham, Canada
Szlamka Gyuri
Claude Jolicoeur
> For some reason I believed that if I go with a little bigger (10l) amounts,
10L is quite small.
> I'll get the apples from a cold storage, close to the orchard. I hope they
> won't show that much maturation.
apples are still very hard coming out of storage, you could wait a
little while until they get softer before pressing - slightly overripe
apples tend to have less Nitrogen, and their pectins will have
transformed. This might give you a better cider.
> I have no access to cider yeast at the moment, so I'll go with wine yeast,
> but I haven't selected any yet. Do you have any tip how to pick one?
surely a good choice for a beginner. When you have more experience,
you can then play with yeast type.
> Thank you for your comments again. I really appreciate your help. Oh, I
> nearly forgot, I'm writing from Hungary.
friends!
Claude
Andrew Lea
> For some reason I believed that if I go with a little bigger (10l)
> amounts, it helps me to keep things better under control, the process
> will be more stable and more like in bigger scale. Or am I wrong? What
> amount would you recommend?
Obviously a large vessel (> 100 L) will be more buffered against
temperature changes, pick-up of air etc. But 10L is fine for tests of
different varieties, different yeasts etc. When I worked in cider
research we used 10 - 15L glass jars for such experiments (though they
were in a temperature controlled room).
>
> My last question for today is about pectolytic enzyme. Andrew advised on
> www.cider.org.uk <http://www.cider.org.uk/> that it is supposed to be
> added to the freshly pressed juice. Wouldn't it help if I added some
> enzyme to the pulp before pressing too? Wouldn't I get more juice?
You might get more juice if you add it to the pulp, and it may make
late-stored dessert apples easier to press. But you would need to leave
the treated pulp overnight in the cold with the enzyme before pressing
to get a good effect of pectin breakdown. (You will probably need more
enzyme if you do this.) In fact special branded enzymes are sold for
pulp enzyming and they are a different blend from the standard juice
enzymes (eg compare Erbsloeh Fructozyme P and MA). But these are used
mostly by large producers and on a small scale might prove quite
expensive to get hold of.
simoncider
On Jan 22, 9:54 am, Gyuri <szla...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'd like to get 150 kg apples. Unfortunately I only have dessert
> apples available: Golden, Jonagold and Idared. I know it isn't ideal,
> but that's available in January here. In long term I'm planning to
> find the best local varieties, but it needs time since cider making
> isn't part of our culture.
We have made plenty of cider from Idareds with great success,
definitely haven't got the depth of flavour that you'd expect from the
traditional cider apples, but i've had enough dessert apple cider to
actually prefer the taste now!
Have also had success with Jonagold, but would agree with previous
comments that Golden Delicious is difficult to press and not really
worth the bother.
Good Luck!
Simon.
Szlamka Gyuri
Andrew Lea
>
> The real headache was titration. Sulphuric acid was 5 mg/l (should be
> 0.7% malic acid). The bad news is that this was the lowest end of the
> scale, unfortunately this set can't measure below 5 mg/l.
> What this set can measure is "titratable" acid. I have no idea what
> "titratable" means in English, I just translated it as it is. The
> process was simple, I had to add NaOH to the juice, till it's colour
> turns to blue. The result is much more reliable here (at the middle of
> the scale), but I have no clue what it means in cider terms: 5g/l.
> What do you think, can I use this number or should I look for some other
> kit?
I don't really understand your question, but ...
"Titratable acid" just means "acid analysed by a titration method" i.e.
by neutralisation with alkali (base) against an indicator. Which is what
you are doing.
A result expressed as "5 grams per litre as sulphuric acid" needs to be
multiplied by 1.4 to convert it to grams per litre as malic acid. So 5
g/L as sulphuric becomes 7 g/L as malic. Or 0.7% of course.
(I don't understand where your 5 mg/L comes in. That is 1000 times
lower. Maybe that's just a typo?)
Andrew
--
Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk
Szlamka Gyuri
--
Visit our website: http://www.ciderworkshop.com
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Cider Workshop" group.
To post to this group, send email to cider-workshop@googlegroups.com
Andrew Lea
>
> Total acid was 5 g/l and free sulphite was below 5 mg/l. No surprise in
> a freshly pressed apple juice. It wasn't a typo, this measurement has no
> sense at this stage. I confused free sulphite (H2SO3) with sulphuric
> acid (H2SO4). I'm sorry about that, it was a translation mistake.
> I'll find an other kit for measuring malic acid, but I have time to do that.
OK I understand about the SO2 confusion. If you didn't add any, then
there won't be any there. You don't need to buy another kit for the
malic acid. The titration kits do not measure *specific* acids, they
measure any acid that is present. If the value is expressed "as
sulphuric", just multiply by 1.4 to convert it to "as malic".
Szlamka Gyuri
Szlamka Gyuri
Andrew Lea
> I finished all the measurements today. As much as I can judge, there is
> no sense to blend these varieties, because they show pretty similar
> characteristics.
Yes but there is much more to flavour than just pH and acid. Anyway you
can blend the ciders later. One reason for blending the juice now is to
get the pH as low as you can for protection against adverse moulds and
bacteria and so you do not have to add too much SO2.
Interestingly I expected these apples to be much more acid.
It is now mid-February. They will have had 4 months or so in store.
During that time some of the acid will have been lost by respiration.
When the apples were fresh they were probably more acid.