Re: [Cider Workshop] a lot of sediment in cider

[Andrew Lea]

On 24/04/2013 07:21, chefse...@gmail.com wrote:

>
> Just checked SG at 1002 so was about to rack when I saw that_half _the
> demi john was filled with fluffy 'cloud-like' sediment with a very clear
> liquid on top.
>
> My question is
> 1. What is it and how can I avoid the same thing happening next time

Most probably pectin, coming from the cooking apples and precipitated by
the alcohol. Many people using dessert fruit use a proprietary
'pectinase' enzyme blend routinely on the juice to prevent this happening.
>
> 2. Is there a way to deal with it without just racking the liquid off
> the top as I will loose most of my cider

It is worth trying a pectinase now on the bulk, but you may need a
higher dose than normal and it may work slowly (weeks not days!) Pectic
enzymes are not very effective in the presence of alcohol. You could
also do small scale trials with various fining systems to see if any
work for you, or filtration. The sediment may get more compact with
time, or if chilled. A trace of calcium might help the pectin to become
more compact if you want to be bold and experimental. But do all your
fining tests on small samples before you commit to the whole batch.
'Overfining' and permanent cloudiness is a real possibility!


Andrew

--
Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

[chefse...@gmail.com]

Thanks Andrew

Appreciate the information, I will try pectinase first and then fining if no result.

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Marc,
See: http://picasaweb.google.com/cjoliprsf/Cider
There are pictures there which I call of "Pectic gel" that I get once
in a while. If you think you have the same of these, note that I have
never yet had success with pectinase treatment with them. However,
with time (2 to 3 months) such a gel does settle and at the end only
takes about 20 to 25% of the total volume. Hence the better part of
the cider is saved, and the gellied part itself can be kept to be used
in the kitchen for cooking, so is not a complete loss either.
Claude



On 24 avr, 02:21, chefseraf...@gmail.com wrote:
> Hi There
>
> I am wondering if any one can explain something to me. I did a small batch
> of cider with Yarlington Mill apples mixed half and half with Early
> Victoria (cooking) apples for acidity. Titratable acidity was 8.25 and PH
> 3.9 which I lowered to 3.6 using citric acid (ran out of malic).
>
> OG 1046 which I raised to 1068 with some organic apple juice concentrate
> and some sugar.
>
> Fermented with Wyeast cider yeast 4766. Been fermenting since 30/3 in
> temperature controlled environment at 13-14 degrees celsius (I am in
> Australia so I use a chest fridge/ heat pad set up with external
> thermometer as air temp too high during the day).
>
> Just checked SG at 1002 so was about to rack when I saw that* half *the

> demi john was filled with fluffy 'cloud-like' sediment with a very clear
> liquid on top.
>
> My question is
> 1. What is it and how can I avoid the same thing happening next time
>

> 2. Is there a way to deal with it without just racking the liquid off the
> top as I will loose most of my cider
>

> thanks in anticipation
> Marc

[chefse...@gmail.com]

Hi Claude

thanks very much for the photos. Yes it certainly looks like the same thing, 'cloud-like' sediment on bottom and clear cider on top. So I suppose I should try pectinase and if no result leave it to settle as you described? 

If I do leave to settle would I still rack cider off the Lees or will this just mix the sediment into the cider irrevocably.  

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Marc wrote:
> I should try pectinase and if no result leave it to settle as you
> described?
> If I do leave to settle would I still rack cider off the Lees or will this
> just mix the sediment into the cider irrevocably.

There is no real point to rack it now, unless you wish to bottle the
top cleared part now, which is a reasonable option. In this case rack
the top to bottle, and the bottom with gel to a smaller carboy. You
don't have to worry about mixing the gel when you rack the bottom
part, as it will resettle.
Claude

[Richard S.]

Claude,

I am curious to know if you get this gel even with the use of pectinase or do you resist using it? Also, I believe you use Cortland extensively, as do I, and wondered if you have any reason to point to them as the culprit? So far I have not had this issue and would rather avoid having to deal with it.

Thanks,

Richard S.

[Andrew Lea]

On 24/04/2013 17:46, Richard S. wrote:
>
> So far I have not had this issue and
> would rather avoid having to deal with it.

Don't forget there is a 'natural' mechanism which means that pectin
hazes in cider after fermentation don't always happen.

Recall first that to eliminate soluble but alcohol-precipitable pectin
you need 2 enzymes to work in sequence - PME (pectin methyl esterase) to
take the methyl groups off the polygalacturonate backbone, and PG
(polygalacturonase) to depolymerise the resultant polygalacturonic acid
into simple galacturonic acid units.

It so happens that apples natively contain variable amounts of PME (it
is probable that cider apples contain more than dessert apples), and
yeast contains variable amounts of PG. So the co-operative effect of
these two enzymes is to eliminate the pectin without people even
realising it. This was all studied at Long Ashton around 60 years ago,
long before the commercial use of pectic enzyme cocktails became
widespread as it is now. Many of us who use UK cider fruit and wild
yeasts never need to add any 'pectinase' because our raw materials do
the job for us. But it isn't always the case for everyone. That's why so
many people add pectic enzymes as a routine precaution.

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Richard S. wrote:
> I am curious to know if you get this gel even with the use of pectinase or do you resist using it?  Also, I believe you use Cortland extensively, as do I, and wondered if you have any reason to point to them as the culprit?  So far I have not had this issue and would rather avoid having to deal with it.
>

Richard,
I do use pectinase, but the problem I've had is that I really don't
know what I'm getting. When I go at my wine-making supply store and
ask for pectinase, they give me a small packet of white powder. Fine.
But then if I dare ask them what sort of pectinase this is, if it is
for grapes or if it is a general purpose fruit pectinase, I get the
sort of answer you get from someone that doesn't understand what you
are talking about.... All they can say is that it is pectinase. Is it
fresh? They don't know - they don't even know that this stuff doesn't
keep forever.

So, this year, hopefully, I should be able to test some pectinases
that are really optimized for apple and pears - thanks to Chris... And
we'll be able to know better if a batch what was treated with a good
fresh apple pectinase may still have this pectic gel.

As of if Cortland is more prone to it, I don't think so. Sure Cortland
has a lot of pectins - it keeves beautifully by the way. The fact that
I press my apples when they are borderline to being overripe is
probably also a factor.

Claude

[chefse...@gmail.com]

Hi Andrew

Just to let you know I treated my pectin gel cider with pectinase and it worked an absolute treat, all of the sediment compacted now to a very manageable amount of a couple of inches or so at the bottom of the demijohn. Great save so thanks again.

I also treated my next juice with pectinase before fermenting as it involved some non cider varieties and it cleared it really well.

I found your posts from a while ago regarding testing pectin content with methylated spirit and I will make it part of my standard testing before fermentation for any suspect fruit.

[Richard S.]

On Apr 24, 1:33 pm, Andrew Lea <y...@cider.org.uk> wrote:

> It so happens that apples natively contain variable amounts of PME (it
> is probable that cider apples contain more than dessert apples), and
> yeast contains variable amounts of PG. So the co-operative effect of
> these two enzymes is to eliminate the pectin without people even
> realising it.

Andrew, are you suggesting here that a bit of supplemental PME in
addition to PG could increase the chances of a clear cider from
dessert juice?

[Andrew Lea]

Let me recap the (simplified!) theory of pectin and its clarification in
apple juice.

1. Pectin is a complex chain of polygalacturonic acid which in apples is
highly esterified with methanol. (There are also significant neutral
sugar side chains such as arabinose, xylose and rhamnose but they are
usually only significant to people who are making juice for apple juice
concentrate).

2. Two enzymes are needed to break down the pectin into simple
galacturonic acid units which will not form a haze in the presence of
alcohol. Neither single enzyme on its own will be effective in apple
juice. Commercial 'pectinase' enzymes are always cocktails or mixtures
of activities unless otherwise defined and specified (eg those sold for
keeving or fruit firming).

3. The two enzymes are PME (pectin methyl esterase) which strips the
methanol from the polygalacturonate chain to form free polygalacturonic
acid, and PG (polygalacturonase) which breaks up the polygalacturonic

acid into simple galacturonic acid units.

4. PG will not work on polygalacturonic acid if it is still methylated,
so the prior action of PME is absolutely necessary to strip away the
methanol before the PG can get to work. If you add a commercial
'pectinase' cocktail to apple juice, both activities can work to do this.

5. In real-life cider making, apples naturally contain variable amounts
of PME and yeast contains variable amounts of PG. Hence pectin
destruction can take place naturally by the sequential action of these
enzymes without the cidermaker even being aware of it.

Hope this helps.