Bag in box issue

[Tobys Cider]

Hi all,

I wonder could you help.

I have for the first time decided to try bag-in-box containers, 20 litre, for a festival.

I have filled them with the cider, closed them off and then put them into the pasteuriser.

During pasteurisation, the bags have ballooned up. I removed most of the air before sealing the bags, but now they are so over inflated they will not fit into the boxes.

Will they shrink back down when they have cooled?

Is there another option?

What is the correct procedure for us bag-in-box containers in the future?

Thanks in advance for your help and suggestions, hope I can fix this, as I now have 35 over-inflated cider balloons.

[Alasdair Keddie]

When I experimented with pasteurising BiBs, I didn't fit the tap until afterwards.  This also meant I could place a temperature probe inside the juice.

Regards,

Al

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[skidbro...@tiscali.co.uk]

Hi
I am sure the bags will shrink when cool and should still fit in the boxes.
I gather from previous postings that they are very susceptible to bursting
when hot, so handle with care.
My overriding thought though is: If you are trying something completely new
for the first time, why on earth would you run 700 litres through without
checking that the first few work?
Good luck
Guy

Original Message:
-----------------
From: Alasdair Keddie alasdai...@gmail.com
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 22:44:31 +0000
To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Bag in box issue

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[Tobys Cider]

Thanks for the reply.

I hope they do contract a bit, I know the first time they are opened the air can be released before any of the cider which will make things easier, the problem is there is now headspace, so I am worried about spoilage.

The reason I ran 700 litres is that everything was set up to run, so rather than clean everything, set it all up, heat the pasteuriser for one 20 litre bag, it seemed more economical do run a full batch. Hindsight is a wonderful thing isn't it.

[Andrew Lea]

I am no expert here but two questions:

1. Have the bags ballooned uniformly or have they delaminated with gas
in the space between the two (or more) plastic layers? My understanding
is that the first layer (closest to the liquid) is permeable to CO2 but
the second isn't. I have certainly seen delamination of bags in BiB
ciders which have started to referment.

2. Why are you so sure that the headspace is air? How CO2 saturated was
the cider? Could it just be CO2 forced out of solution? In which case it
should slowly be re-adsorbed back into the cider (I presume, but don't
know how long that would take). And there should be no spoilage risk.

Have you spoken to your bag supplier? They are quite knowledgeable about
these things I think, and may have some useful advice.

Andrew

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[David Llewellyn]

Can you not hold the tap uppermost, and apply some pressure to the bag, while allowing the excess gas to escape through the tap? Of course it would mean tearing off the tamper-proof strip to open the tap, but if you allow the gas to escape under slight pressure, you should not have return of air back inside the bag. Just a thought.

 

David Llewellyn

 

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From: cider-w...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cider-w...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Tobys Cider
Sent: 16 November 2012 10:23
To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Cc: skidbro...@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Bag in box issue

Thanks for the reply.

I hope they do contract a bit, I know the first time they are opened the air can be released before any of the cider which will make things easier, the problem is there is now headspace, so I am worried about spoilage.

The reason I ran 700 litres is that everything was set up to run, so rather than clean everything, set it all up, heat the pasteuriser for one 20 litre bag, it seemed more economical do run a full batch. Hindsight is a wonderful thing isn't it.

 

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[Tobys Cider]

Thanks as always for the help and advice.

Looks like you were right Andrew. The bags had uniformly ballooned, and not between the layers. They have all reduced now to their original size, and fit nicely into the boxes.

I did not really want to break the seal, but this was going to be my last resort option.

We lost a couple of bags, but since this was our first attempt at least now we have learnt a few lessons and will hopefully not make the same mistake again.

Thanks again.