Apple varieties for Medium cider

[Phil]

I'm looking to select apple varieties to make, ideally, a medium
Eastern counties style cider. Not having trees of my own, I am going
to local apple growers and merchants to source the fruit. I'm lucky
enough to live in an area of Kent where there are lots of apples
available, but that also means I have a completely blank canvas from
which to start from - which for a beginner is a bit daunting!

I'm thinking of mixing Bramley / Egremont Russet / Dabinett in roughly
equal measures.

-- can anyone tell me how that's likely to come out?
-- are there particular apple varieties that would help the cider come
out medium rather than dry?

Thanks for any help!

[Andrew Lea]

On 08/08/2011 14:00, Phil wrote:
>
>
> I'm thinking of mixing Bramley / Egremont Russet / Dabinett in roughly
> equal measures.
>
> -- can anyone tell me how that's likely to come out?

Personally I would skip the Bramley but that's your choice.

> -- are there particular apple varieties that would help the cider come
> out medium rather than dry?

If you mean are there any 'magic apples' whose sugars don't ferment to
dryness - no.

The only way you can achieve that is by special techniques such as
keeving or the use of fruit from very low nitrogen orchards (which will
not be the case with modern commercial fruit).

Otherwise your routes are (a) add sugar and pasteurise or (b) add
artificial sweeteners such as saccharin or sucralose.

Andrew

--
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
http://www.cider.org.uk

[Dave]

Can you get quantities of Dabinett in Kent?
I would have some Cox in there.

[Michael Cobb]

(c) Preserve some juice by freezing or pasteurisation, back blend with the
fermented cider and pasteurise the result - *may* give more body and
flavour than just adding a sweetener

Michael Cobb

>
> --
> Wittenham Hill Cider Page
> http://www.cider.org.uk
>
>

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[Raymond Blockley]

I'd agree with Andrew - skip the Bramleys. There are many other decent dessert apples that you should be able to scrounge / buy cheaply that are cull or don't suit what the shops / supermarkets / buyers want (or are told they want...). If you really want an "eastern counties" style cider, leave out the Dabinetts too.

A wide range of dessert fruit can add a lot of apple-y flavours and a really nice bouquet. One of the nicest eastern-style ciders I've ever tried is made by a bloke a couple of miles from me and he uses over 50 different varieties of mainly dessert with a few dual-purpose or culinary apples (no Bramleys though).

 

Go experiment. :-)

 

Cheers, Ray.

--
Ray B

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Raymond Blockley wrote:
> I'd agree with Andrew - skip the Bramleys.

> .....

> If you really want an "eastern counties" style cider, leave
> out the Dabinetts too.

Humm... From what I know of Egremont, it would be high in sugar (good)
but also quite high in acids (not so good) - but maybe also it ripens
differently in UK than in N.America. Blended with Dabinett, it might
make an interesting blend, Dabinett lowering the acidity and giving
some tannins. It could make a sort of intermediate between Eastern and
Western styles.
I would also agree about the Bramley, which would be low in sugar and
high in acid.
Personnally, some of my better ciders are from high flavour-sugar-acid
russet apples blended with 25 to 40% bittersweets.
Claude

[Raymond Blockley]

Just to clarify, we grow Dabinetts, Kingston Blacks, HMJ's, Yarlington Mill, Tremletts Bitter, Stoke Red, etc etc etc.

My point was simply to say that a true "eastern style" cider wouldn't have the Dabinetts in. We use all sorts in our ciders and consider them a "central style"...... But we also make "eastern style" ciders using a wide range of dessert, plus dual purpose, some culinary, wildings, crabs, etc.

 

Ray.

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Ray B

[Stephen Hayes]

Interesting discusison.

 

I hypothesise the cider as a curry and the varieties as individual spices in the blend. Jez and I often discuss this east versus west thing. Of course, the golden rule with a curry (IMO) is whether you like it, not whether if follows artificially contrived authenticity rules.

 

R R Williams’ cider book, which informed my choice of varieties to plant, mentioned that some growers planted a high proportion of bittersweets in order to blend with cull dessert to lift the quality of the cider. My decision to plant a lot of Tremlett’s Bitter was based on this philosophy.

 

Tremletts is great for adding something to the earlier cull desert fruit. Its not pure eastern counties, its something a but different and in my view better.

 

what do you say Jez?

 

PS a lot of Laxton’s Epicure will be ready to press soon and some cull Lord Lambourne, get in touch off line

 

Stephen Hayes

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[jez....@btinternet.com]

And I haven't even got my Voran yet:-)

Yes, I agree Stephen. Having said that (and we have discussed this a lot too) that some decent bittersharps are a good thing too. I do like Tremletts though.

As far as eastern ciders go, I am afraid my experience of the Fruitwise heritage way of doing things (I.e. High quality varieties) has turned me into a bit of a snob. Sure, you can make a light, acidic cider from most desert apples but if you can choose those apples with character (e.g. Orleans Reinette, Egremont or other mid to late varieties) you will make something much better. I have tasted great eastern ciders and I have tasted bland ones too.

And yes, I really rate Egremont Russet:-)

All the best

Jez
Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device

[Carl LeClair]

Jez Wrote:

> As far as eastern ciders go, I am afraid my experience of the Fruitwise heritage way of doing things (I.e. High quality varieties) has turned me into a bit of a >snob. Sure, you can make a light, acidic cider from most desert apples but if you can choose those apples with character (e.g. Orleans Reinette, Egremont or >other mid to late varieties) you will make something much better. I have tasted great eastern ciders and I have tasted bland ones too.

I read with great interest " I have tasted great eastern ciders "
Could all using these apple varieties comment on a cost factor for
your cider
when using non-heritage variety cider apples vs. your best
bittersweets & bittersharps only?
I would think that if you have a sizable cost savings and you still
produce a good cider with
these non-heritage apples that it would allow you to have a stronger
competitive edge against
the large producers of poor quality cider, while still bringing a
better cider to the consumer?,
or do you find that your clients will not buy this level of cider from
you?

Regards,

Carl

[Jez Howat]

Carl,

I didn't really say it in terms of cost. I say it in as much as not all
apples are equal.

For an Eastern cider, you don't want any cider varieties of apples - you
want desert varieties. There won't be much tannin in an Eastern style cider
mainly because the apples used won't have much tannin. However, beyond that
there are significant differences in, say, a Braeburn and an Egremont
Russet.

I used to find it both fascinating and frustrating walking around the
orchard with Stephen Hayes as I was learning to make cider. He would point
at a row of trees that were dripping with fruit and say, "Make awful cider,
don't make the mistake". As I have grown in experience, I have learnt
(mainly by ignoring Stephen and doing it the hard way) that too much of a
bad apple will produce a bad cider, and that in moderation (going back to
his 'spices' analogy) a cider can tolerate some bulking fruit.

Because a large proportion of the varieties grown are desert (outside of the
traditional cider counties) a lot of small makers will use what they can get
locally (or even from roadsides). This is partly why there is an increase in
eastern style cider around. Mostly, it is great (and I do like a nice light,
fresh cider with a bite). Some commercial products I have tried though -
either the sharpness runs too wild, or there are even sour notes, or it
takes 'thin' to new levels. Ultimately it is a personal thing, but I don't
believe you can just chuck in anything and expect a fantastic cider.

In terms of cost, I am not convinced that desert apples are any cheaper or
more expensive to buy than cider varieties. Of course, there are the
transport costs of cider varieties if you are outside of 'the zone' and
don't grow your own. I do know of a couple of cider makers who seem to be
making a lot of eastern style and I presume that cost is a part of the
reason... but then I am not privy to their business strategy so it may be
just that this is what they want to do.

Not sure if that answers your question Carl, but I hope it clarifies my own
statement.

All the best

Jez

[Raymond Blockley]

Carl wrote:

"I read with great interest " I have tasted great eastern ciders "
Could all using these apple varieties comment on a cost factor for
your cider
when using non-heritage variety cider apples vs. your best
bittersweets & bittersharps only?"

 

- The cost of dessert and culinary fruit around here is a joke as many of the orchards and growers have been sidelined by the supermarkets and their buyers. If you ask folk where apples in the shops come from, the most common answer would probably be South Africa, France or if in the UK, the Vale of Evesham area. I think I posted last season of one grower who I support by taking his apples off him at much more than he can get for them by selling them as horse feed. Currently, that is his only outlet for his apples, by matching the cost of horse-carrots. The situation may well be different elsewhere in the UK. It is sad that areas reknowned for growing dessert and culinary apples (east Nottinghamshire) are dismissed now, whereas not too many years ago, special trains used to leave Newark and Tuxford carrying nothing but apples for London or South Yorkshire. I pay a premium for the non-cider fruit I use, but much less than I'd have to pay for cider fruit. But then the transport costs of collecting that local fruit are also much less than collecting cider fruit from 100 or so miles away. Geographical location can play havoc with your costings.   

"I would think that if you have a sizable cost savings and you still
produce a good cider with
these non-heritage apples that it would allow you to have a stronger
competitive edge against
the large producers of poor quality cider, while still bringing a
better cider to the consumer?,
or do you find that your clients will not buy this level of cider from
you?"

 

- The key thing is making the best cider you can from whatever fruit you use. Poor cider can be made from any apple - true cider heritage / vintage variety, or dessert / culinary non-cider fruit. Many times it's been discussed that high pH cider-fruit can lead to as many taste "problems" as low pH dessert / culinary fruit - but whereas the latter may be sharp and thin, the former can be undrinkable and smell foul to boot. From my own personal experience and viewpoint, one reason I think there are so many sickly-sweet, or spirit-cask, or fruit-flavoured "ciders" around is that such methods of masking the true taste of the cider allow some very poor ciders to be shifted. (BTW: I agree that a small hint of rum can work well with some [good] ciders).  

 

Cheers, Ray.

 

 

--
Ray B

[Carl LeClair]

Ray Wrote:

> - The cost of dessert and culinary fruit around here is a joke as many of
> the orchards and growers have been sidelined by the supermarkets and their
> buyers. If you ask folk where apples in the shops come from, the most common
> answer would probably be South Africa, France or if in the UK, the Vale of
> Evesham area.

I am currently reading " The Book of Apples by Morgan & Richards " and
have just
touched on chapter 4 which speaks to the same issues you are having
back about
the 1890's! Seems history has repeated itself once again. Our farmers
are facing the
same market conditions here. The shelves are loaded with apples from
across the world
while we have plenty of varieties growing locally going to waste? Our
Motts plant can buy
concentrate delivered for less than what it costs to pick the fruit
off the tree's across the street?
Sooner or later the carbon footprint will catch up to us, yet my fear
is the local farmers will be
lost to these poor economic decisions sooner than later.

Regards,

Carl

On Aug 11, 3:15 am, Raymond Blockley <raymond_block...@sky.com> wrote:
> Carl wrote:
>
> *"I read with great interest " I have tasted great eastern ciders "

> Could all using these apple varieties comment on a cost factor for
> your cider
> when using non-heritage variety cider apples vs. your best

> bittersweets & bittersharps only?"*

>
> - The cost of dessert and culinary fruit around here is a joke as many of
> the orchards and growers have been sidelined by the supermarkets and their
> buyers. If you ask folk where apples in the shops come from, the most common
> answer would probably be South Africa, France or if in the UK, the Vale of
> Evesham area. I think I posted last season of one grower who I support by
> taking his apples off him at much more than he can get for them by selling
> them as horse feed. Currently, that is his only outlet for his apples,
> by matching the cost of horse-carrots. The situation may well be different
> elsewhere in the UK. It is sad that areas reknowned for growing dessert and
> culinary apples (east Nottinghamshire) are dismissed now, whereas not too
> many years ago, special trains used to leave Newark and Tuxford carrying
> nothing but apples for London or South Yorkshire. I pay a premium for the
> non-cider fruit I use, but much less than I'd have to pay for cider fruit.
> But then the transport costs of collecting that local fruit are also much
> less than collecting cider fruit from 100 or so miles away. Geographical
> location can play havoc with your costings.
>

> *"I would think that if you have a sizable cost savings and you still

> produce a good cider with
> these non-heritage apples that it would allow you to have a stronger
> competitive edge against
> the large producers of poor quality cider, while still bringing a
> better cider to the consumer?,
> or do you find that your clients will not buy this level of cider from

> you?"*

[Stephen Hayes]

criminal really, but what can you do?

 

We sell our best select dessert apples direct to the public at £3 a kilo, but even at that price we have to sell about 40 kilos for each market before we cover our costs for that market. Growers selling to the supermarkets will struggle to earn a tenth of that, consequently (and we take the industry magazine so we know) all the emphasis is on maxing out production per acre with minimum costs.

 

Interestingly, just back from the Fairport Cropredy Convention near Banbury, and there was a LOT of cider being swallowed, lots of Weston;s Old Rosie (£4 a pint) but huge numbers of bottles of Magners and various ‘pear ciders’ etc as well as huge volumes of Strongbow.

 

I don’t know what the answer is, I’m just an eccentric who can afford to run a 5 acre orchard at break even as a hobby because I have a good ‘daytime job’ and ‘cause I enjoy it. You’d have to be mad to plant an orchard in the hope of making a living from it.

 

Stephen Hayes

 

 

 

From: Raymond Blockley

Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2011 8:15 AM

To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Re: Apple varieties for Medium cider

 

Carl wrote: