Sugar content in fully fermented dry real cider

[Ray Blockley]

Hi all,

Wondering if anyone has any values as percentages as to the typical
final sugar content of a fully fermented fully dry natural real
cider...?

I appreciate an exact figure is probably not an option, nor would I
expect one. And of course I understand that some varieties of perry
pears are a different situation due to sorbitol, etc.

Is there likely to be any difference between a "true" cider apple as
opposed to a dessert or culinary fruit?

Any help appreciated.

Cheers, Ray

[Jez Howat]

Ray,

In my experience dessert apple ciders tends to simply be stronger of they have more sugar.

Also, it's a hard question for many sweeter ciders too as a lot are artificially sweetened.

Hope you can find an answer - it has been perplexing me too:-)

Jez

[Ray Blockley]

Well I'm talking about a fully fermented-out cider in it's *raw* state
here - so post fermentation , pre blending / or any sweetening,
artificial or otherwise.

I'm interested in this from a number of view points, as I'm going to
be leading a talk & tasting with the local Students Unions & Real Ale
Societies next month, plus I need all the ammo I can get when I have
my annual diabetic review and we start to discuss what I drink... ;-)

So raw, fully fermented, sub-1.000 on the hydrometer, real,
unsweetened cider - straight out of the tub / barrel / tank / etc.

Cheers, Ray

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[Claude Jolicoeur]

Ray,
I am not too sure of what is your question really...

you wrote:

Wondering if anyone has any values as percentages as to the typical
final sugar content of a fully fermented fully dry natural real
cider...?

if fully fermented, by definition there should be no residual fermentable sugar left, i.e. 0% RS...
Now, if your question is what should be the final SG of such a cider, then it is different, as the final SG of a fully fermented cider may vary with the amount of soluble solids (other than sugar) present. Some ciders may be fully dry and have a SG of 1.001, while others may need to go as low as 0.996 to be fully dry. And this may change with the type of apples used.
One relatively easy test you can make to check if a cider is fully dry is to take a small test bottle, add nutrients and yeast, and let ferment at room temperature - if some further SG drop happens, it means your cider wasn't fully dry.
Claude

[Tim]

Lowest I have made was .990, 99% of it is 1.000.

Tim in Dorset

[Ray Blockley]

Claude,

I too understood that truly fully fermented dry cider in it's
completed "raw" state would have 0% RS.

I also fully understand that my ciders go sub-1.000 SG on my
hydrometers; the figure is usually lower with dessert / culinary fruit
blends than with West Country UK tannic cider fruit but not by much.

However, a claim has been made that even fully fermented dry cider has
residual sugars - a claim I dispute; so wondered if there were any
figures out there, scientifically proved / tested if you like that
would support my assumption of 0% RS.

[Andrew Lea]

On 05/02/2014 13:50, Ray Blockley wrote:

> Wondering if anyone has any values as percentages as to the typical
> final sugar content of a fully fermented fully dry natural real
> cider...?

If you really mean absolutely dry and totally and fully fermented ...

Sucrose nil
Glucose nil to trace <0.1%*
Fructose nil to trace <0.1%*
Sorbitol 0.4 - 0.8%
Xylose ca 0.05%

*(The balance of G and F and the exact amounts remaining will depend
somewhat on the yeast strain and how glucophilic or fructophilic it is).

Won't make any difference whether it's cider or dessert apples.

Andrew


--
near Oxford, UK
Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

[Ray Blockley]

Thank you, Andrew. That's cleared that up nicely and supports my argument :-)

Cheers, Ray

[Andrew Lea]

On 05/02/2014 14:30, Ray Blockley wrote:

>
> However, a claim has been made that even fully fermented dry cider has
> residual sugars - a claim I dispute; so wondered if there were any
> figures out there, scientifically proved / tested if you like that
> would support my assumption of 0% RS.

Here is an example of some 'modern' figures - see Figure 1.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/j.2050-0416.2004.tb00630.x/pdf

But it's a matter of long received wisdom (and truth) that there is no
sensible sugar in dry cider. But as we know, many ciders maybe sold as
'dry' aren't ;-)

[Ray Blockley]

Yes, I am always amused by the "Dry" ciders you can buy - just as I am by the "Dry" red wines of latter days! 

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[Cheshire Matt]

I'm thinking a higher ABV cider would have a lower SG for the same
amount ot residual sugar...?

Because alcohol (I think) is less dense than water, so more of it in the
"blend" would lead to your hydrometer sinking a little lower.

<waits for Andrew to correct him> :)

On 05/02/2014 14:30, Ray Blockley wrote:

[Ray Blockley]

Now that's why I understood too... :-)

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[Claude Jolicoeur]

Well, the final SG of a fully fermented cider is rather a function of the ratio of fermentable sugar on total solids of the original must. If the must has more sugar than average for a given SG, or if it has been chaptalized, the final SG of the fully fermented cider will be lower.
If your must has a high SG, and also high ratio of non-fermentable solids, the final SG won't be lower because the non-fermentable solids will increase the final SG.
Claude

[Cheshire Matt]

OK - in all these things, if you want to compare apples with apples, you have to hold other things constant - hence why I said for "same level of residual sugar".  I guess I should also have added all the other things that could increase/decrease the density of the liquid - because that's what we're measuring.  So solids, tannins, yeasts, temperature - I guess even different sugars have different densities.

It seems that we actually assume each cider we take the SG of has same density of everything else so that we are measuring true sugar differences between them.  Of course, that raises interesting questions like: is the OG we measure after pressing actually too high, and should we correct for the amount of solids that settle during fermentation.

This kind of debate is only useful if we work through and eliminate, discount or keep the same the 4th, 3rd & 2nd order effects to a level we are happy as being either controlled/constrant, measurable, or negligible, thus leaving the 1st order effect that we actually want to measure.  In this case amount of sugar, which, let's face it, is via a pretty crude simple physical method, and in fact is only a proxy for what we _actually_ want to measure - which is alchohol content.

Is that a better answer? :)

[greg l.]

Ray, in terms of diet and diabetics etc I am pretty sure dry cider has effectively no residual sugar. This makes dry cider a relatively healthy alcoholic drink unlike sweet cider, spirits plus mixer etc. The only calories you are getting are the alcohol. There can be a tiny bit of residual sugar left as the yeast give up, but you would need a lab test to measure this amount of sugar, you won't taste it and it won't add to your waist. The significance of this tiny residual sugar is when it feeds spoilage yeasts and bacteria which can ruin your cider.

Greg

On Thursday, 6 February 2014 00:50:16 UTC+11, Ray wrote: