using blue HDPE barrels for Fermentation
Dave Sargent
hello all...
a small group of us (in north yorkshire) have been making "cider" for two seasons (the first season product would not have fitted into the "Cider" category!!, but last year we produced a much more palatable beverage) using the comercially available 30l thin(ish) translucent PE vessels from local homebrew shop (we now have about 12 of them!) and need larger alternatives. .
this year we are planning on expanding our output and were wondering about using the "ex-fruit syrup" blue HDPE drums from recycling sites etc as they are "food grade". They seem ideal, with the addition of a tap and vent hole.. we were thinking of the large neck screw top rather than the clip band (I use the latter in the canoe and they are finger biters even with gloves on!!)
has anyone had experience of fermenting in these? I am concerned about possible migration of pigment as the alcohol levels rise.
any advice greatly recieved
many thanks
Hillside Dave
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Cheshire Matt
too" to Hillside Dave's question.
Been thinking about exactly the same thing - and have 3 questions:
1) in general, what do people use for "the next size" up fermenter?
(from the 25L wide-neck home-brew shop ones)
2) are these airtight/does the pigment migrate?
http://www.waterbuttsnbottles.co.uk/OPEN-TOP-KEGS/60-Litre-Open-Top-Keg/p-114-443/
3) anyone got a better supplier of suitable circa 30 to 60L containers
for a sensible price?
Oh - and one final one: anyone else off to Broome Farm this weekend?
Cheers, Matt
matthelliwell
> Hi all - first post round here and all that. Just want to add a "me
> too" to Hillside Dave's question.
>
> Been thinking about exactly the same thing - and have 3 questions:
> 1) in general, what do people use for "the next size" up fermenter?
> (from the 25L wide-neck home-brew shop ones)
> for a sensible price?
http://www.smithsofthedean.co.uk/ a couple of times when I've needed
containers. Cost and selection seem good to me and they've been
helpful when I've phoned them up after bits and pieces.
Matt
Mark Shirley
Welcome aboard guys.
We use 60 and 120 litre open top kegs, the type with galvanised steel rings
to seal, and have no problems with leaching of pigment over the course of
almost 12 months fermentation/storage. All ours came new from
http://www.waterbuttsnbottles.co.uk/ at what I consider to be a very
reasonable price, and I personally wouldn't be bothered with buying used
kegs for the relatively small cost saving.
We've had no problems with the 60 litre kegs, but the batch of 120 litre
ones we got do not seal very well, and this is something I'm working on at
the moment. Another less obvious problem with the larger kegs is the
difficulty in racking off. Unless the vessel is raised for syphoning, or you
have a good food-grade pump, they are too heavy to lift, particularly as
they don't have handles like the 60 litre kegs.
It is possible to drill a hole in the lid and fit a bored bung for an
airlock, but if you want to fill the vessel right up to the top to reduce
airspace as much as possible, you will need to buy a Bulkhead Adaptor from
Vigo, at around £5 each (plus possibly their larger bungs and airlock to
fit). I've seen these kegs used without airlock, the lids tightened down as
the fermentation slows down. Seems quite risky to me!
Alternatives can be quite pricey. We have a few of the 60 litre fermenters
shown here:
http://www.the-home-brew-shop.co.uk/acatalog/Fermenting_Bins_and_Buckets.html
which are very good and come complete with airlock.
Cheers, Mark
http://rockinghamforestcider.moonfruit.com/
http://rockinghamforestcider.blogspot.com/
Melanie Wilson
difficulty in racking off.
Can't you just drill a hole at the bottom and fit a tap to drain off it ?
You'd still need to raise it but prob not so far , you can get wheel things
that they fit in, so a kind of slope for racking springs to mind
Mel
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Jez Howat
(although have used Ampulla - Water Butts n Bottles too). I am starting to
go with the blue/black kegs - I intend to run with a 240l keg too (but am
interested in Mark's note about sealing...)
My idea is that I press into 30l containers, then combine fermenting juice
together into the 60l containers - gradually moving up to the 'bigguns' to
overwinter and store before racking off into smaller containers for bottling
and longer term storage.
All the best
Jez
Andrew Lea
> Hi all - first post round here and all that. Just want to add a "me
> too" to Hillside Dave's question.
>
> Been thinking about exactly the same thing - and have 3 questions:
> 1) in general, what do people use for "the next size" up fermenter?
> (from the 25L wide-neck home-brew shop ones)
I use the Graf or Speidel HDPE winemaking tanks from Vigo (you can
probably get them from Brouwland or direct from Germany too). They come
from 60 L up to I think 500 L. Note this link shows both the wine
barrels I use and the 'mash' ones which Dave is talking about (though
they are brand new)
http://www.graf-water.com/en/horticulture-viticulture/barrels.html
They are not cheap but I have had mine for up to 20 years and they have
given great service and look set to go on doing so. So if you amortise
the capital costs over that period they are not so expensive after all.
Taps and caps and fermentation locks are all available to fit and
replacements can easily be bought (I have needed to replace a couple of
lids and airlocks for various reasons). The best thing is the tap
adaptor to BSP which allows you to use a proper polythene stopcock and
push fit to suitable hosing for racking etc. There is nothing quite like
a 'system' where all the bits fit together, for ease of use!
BTW re any secondhand drum if previously used for *citrus*. DON'T! You
can't ever get rid of the taint because the oils leach deep into the
plastic and cannot be cleaned off.
Andrew
--
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
http://www.cider.org.uk
Dick Dunn
>
> >Another less obvious problem with the larger kegs is the
> difficulty in racking off.
>
> Can't you just drill a hole at the bottom and fit a tap to drain off it ?
>
> You'd still need to raise it but prob not so far , you can get wheel things
> that they fit in, so a kind of slope for racking springs to mind
If you're racking from one container to another by draining, you still
have to get the bottom of the supplying container above the top of the
receiving container.
What has worked for me--I have a couple of 30-US-gal (hence about 120 l)
containers--is to drive the cider from one barrel to the other with CO2.
But obviously I didn't have the sealing problem that Mark Shirley
describes.
This wastes some CO2 of course...I'd use N2 if I had a setup for it.
--
Dick Dunn rc...@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
Cheshire Matt
Had been thinking about issues of racking and moving the things -
hence 60L and nothing bigger - and the risk of having a tank "go bad"
in my early stages.
The square/Speidel tanks look spot-on for top access, tap, clear to
see level of sediment, airlock and the attraction of "all the bits fit
together" and just working - saves the fiddling around. And of
course, buying the additional airlocks, bungs, adaptors etc and time
to put them together soon starts to add up. May see how I go this
year before the serious investment next year...
Melanie Wilson
have to get the bottom of the supplying container above the top of the
receiving container.
Indeed, simple physics, but it has always been, for me at least, a far
easier option than trying to keep a tube somewhere near the bottom of a
large container , whichs feeding it up over the top and down again into
another container--sorry just strikes me as a really inelegant solution to
moving liquid from one place to another
Andrew Lea
>
> If you're racking from one container to another by draining, you still
> have to get the bottom of the supplying container above the top of the
> receiving container.
There is a published layout for a French cider factory by Warcollier
where if I remember rightly the juice is initially pumped up to the
keeving tanks which are set a storey above the barrels into which they
are eventually racked. This allows the most sensitive racking operations
to be done entirely by gravity flow without the need for pumped
intervention or disturbance of sediment etc. I have often thought of
planning to do the same thing but never got around to it. Makes perfect
sense, though. And draining is so much more controllable than syphoning.
BTW one of the great merits of translucent HDPE for fermenting is that
you can immediately see where the sediment is when racking - a
tremendous help.
Jez Howat
(in about 4 months or so) I had planned to build a 'stage' for IBC's (I seem
to recall Rose does something like this - although I could be wrong). By
starting high (and large) and finishing low (and small) its only the juice
or fermenting juice that need be pumped.
Will have a look for that layout.
Jez
Ray Blockley
We use the 60 litre open top kegs with no problems at all. I collected mine
directly from Ampulla.
Gail and I will be at Broome Farm this weekend too. :-)
Ray
http://hucknallciderco.blogspot.com/
PHILL PALMER
matt,
i'll be at broome farm this weekend, along with Ny & Sharon, Tom &
Sandie and Grifter Dave.
The Ceilidh on Friday night is always great fun, especially as mike’s cyder and perry is on the bar.
the marches cyder circle will be out in force on saturday - come and have a glass or 2 and
a chat.
bring your wellies - the forecast doesn't look too good.
we'll have to get wet inside and out !
cheers
phill
> Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 05:54:53 -0700
> Subject: [Cider Workshop] Re: using blue HDPE barrels for Fermentation
Andrew Lea
>
> By starting high (and large) and finishing low (and small) its only the juice
> or fermenting juice that need be pumped.
>
> Will have a look for that layout.
Charley, Vernon L.S. & Mumford, P.M. & Martin, E.J. (1953) The Cider
Factory, Plant and Layout. Leonard Hill, London [Translation of
Technical Manual No. 2 of the French Ministry of Agriculture]
Not sure how easy it is to come by. I thought I'd seen it online
somewhere but I might be mistaken. I have a photocopy (it is 100 pages)
but I have scanned a few relevant pages to
http://www.cider.org.uk/keeving_and_racking_layout.pdf In this
implementation it shows the keeve tanks more or less at ground level and
the racked cider in the basement. Also contains sections (not scanned)
on pressure racking as Dick described.
It is very much 'of its time' (just post WWII) when the modern way was
concrete tanks lined with glass tiles or bitumen. You may laugh now (but
I think I remember tanks at the Shepton Mallet plant in the 70's which
were of this construction and we had one at Long Ashton in the cider
house basement). But it is over 50 years on now and technology is very
different.
Dick Dunn
out with gas pressure...Mel had mentioned about draining:
>...but it has always been, for me at least, a far
> easier option than trying to keep a tube somewhere near the bottom of a
> large container , whichs feeding it up over the top and down again into
Draining (drawing from the bottom) is better, but only if it's possible.
as for bringing the liquid up-and-out--two tricks here:
First, use a rigid tube--either a stiff plastic material or stainless.
Second, use a standoff to keep the tube at the proper distance off the
bottom of the container.
Homebrew suppliers have "racking canes" which are rigid tubing with a
tip that slips over the end to raise the entry point of the liquid above
the sediment.
You want the type of tube that is shaped as an inverted J; this keeps
the flexible tubing you will attach from pinching shut.
For a stainless racking tube--one that I purchased long ago, and a second
much larger one I made myself--the standoff can be a stainless compression
coil spring just large enough to friction-fit over the end of the tube.
This will draw slightly more sediment as it gets going; however the draw
level above the liquid is easily adjustable by sliding the spring up or
down.
Melanie Wilson
First, use a rigid tube--either a stiff plastic material or stainless.
Second, use a standoff to keep the tube at the proper distance off the
bottom of the container.
Hi Dick
Yes I use both these methods and have done for decade with demijohns. :)
Still dislike syphoning, but of course I use it when draining isn't possible
:) But in pre planning I'd hope to be able to drain. But then I have more
vertical space than ground level space !