Keeving
David
season. I have been lucky to source the PME and CaCl2. Andrew says to
add the CaCl2 immediately after pressing and never to add the PME at
the same time but I'm not clear as to when I should actually add the
PME. Any suggestions?
Andrew Lea
Just add the PME once the CaCl2 is thoroughly dissolved and mixed in.
Minutes of delay only. Sorry if it wasn't very clear but I meant that
you shouldn't add the PME and CaCl2 concentrated solution in one shot
since that strength of salt will likely knacker the enzyme. It needs to
be fully diluted in the juice first.
Andrew
--
Wittenham Hill Cider Pages
www.cider.org.uk
Martin Berkeley
the PME say to add the enzyme first and the CaCl2 when the enzyme is
'working'. Andrew says to add the CaCl first and the enzyme later.
Maybe the order does not matter as long as they are not added together?
Martin
On 22/10/2010 10:47, David wrote:
Andrew Lea
is 2 separate additions. With CaCl2 first you are closer to the
'natural' situation. OTOH the logic of adding enzyme first and waiting
some hours / days is that the pectin will be fully demethylated then and
so the addition of CaCl2 should achieve more of an 'instant' keeve. In
practice I have never found keeving to be 'instant' no matter what you
do, nor to work as fast as the instructions say! But then maybe it only
works if you're French :-)
Andrew
David
Tim
Temperatures have risen quite dramatically here in the last few days, shed
is now hovering at 8 degree's, will this be OK for a keeve and should I
cover the tops as I spotted some vinegar fly about yesterday afternoon.
Tim in Dorset
Andrew
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Andrew Lea
even though there is plenty of good science behind it. There are too
many variables and no guarantees (unless you are French)! Are you adding
enzyme and calcium chloride?
I would always cover the tops of keeve tubs. I use my normal HDPE
fermenters but with empty airlocks. They are translucent so I can see
when the gel starts to form and separate. If the pH is appropriate I
even sulphite very lightly - traditional French practice is to keeve in
pre-sulphured barrels.
Andrew
Tim
done the first batch.
Tim in Dorset
Andrew
--
Andrew Lea
Good Luck, Tim! I suggest speaking to your keeve only in French from now
on! "Pour encourager la d�f�cation!"
(What varieties are you using for this, do you know?).
Andrew
Tim
Devon, probably respond better and without the Garlic aroma.
Apples were from Devon near Plymtree, good mix but mainly a small yellow
apple with black dots all over, some Kingston blacks?, there were a few bags
of various types that needed using up so they went into the mix.
SG is 1054 so should give me 7.8% when finished.
Tim in Dorset
-----Original Message-----
From: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:cider-w...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Andrew Lea
Sent: 28 October 2010 10:30
To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Keeving
400 mg/l (ppm). Textbook level!
Good Luck, Tim! I suggest speaking to your keeve only in French from now
on! "Pour encourager la défécation!"
Andrew
Tim
Julian Back
Tim
I did wonder if they were Michelin, thanks for the ID.
Tim in Dorset
Andrew Lea
enquiry really was trying to understand which of the classic categories
they fall into - Sweet, Sharp, Bittersweet or Bittersharp.
If they look as they do and they are a mild bittersweet, yes they might
be Michelin.
Andrew
On 28/10/2010 11:28, Julian Back wrote:
> Those small greeny-yellow apples with black dots look like Michelin,
> I've got some very similar looking ones myself.
> Julian
>
> On 28 October 2010 11:08, Tim <t...@marshwoodvalecider.com
> <mailto:t...@marshwoodvalecider.com>> wrote:
>
> I was considering talking to it in my native tongue, Somerset x Dorset x
> Devon, probably respond better and without the Garlic aroma.
> Apples were from Devon near Plymtree, good mix but mainly a small yellow
> apple with black dots all over, some Kingston blacks?, there were a
> few bags
> of various types that needed using up so they went into the mix.
> SG is 1054 so should give me 7.8% when finished.
>
> Tim in Dorset
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:cider-w...@googlegroups.com>
> [mailto:cider-w...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:cider-w...@googlegroups.com>] On Behalf Of Andrew Lea
> Sent: 28 October 2010 10:30
> To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:cider-w...@googlegroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Keeving
>
> 400 mg/l (ppm). Textbook level!
>
> Good Luck, Tim! I suggest speaking to your keeve only in French from now
> on! "Pour encourager la d�f�cation!"
> <mailto:cider-w...@googlegroups.com>.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
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> For more options, visit this group at
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>
> --
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Claude Jolicoeur
> 400 mg/l (ppm). Textbook level!
Last summer I had friends that went to France and brought me back a
Klercidre kit. However, I had told them it wasn't essential to bring
the bottle of CaCl2 solution if it was too heavy in the luggage, as I
though it would be easy to procure here - so they brought only the
small PME bottle.
However, I am finding it is not as easy to find small quantities of
CaCl2 as I had expected...
I can buy Calcium Chloride 33% solution from a cheesemaking supply
store on the internet. I gather then that 100 ml of this solution
would be 33 g of CaCl2. So, if I want 400 ppm in a 25 litre batch of
juice, I need 10 g of CaCl2, which would be 30 ml of the solution. Is
my calculation right?
Claude
Claude Jolicoeur
> I can buy Calcium Chloride 33% solution from a cheesemaking supply
> store on the internet.
Kalkwasser or limewater), sold in aquarium supply stores to ajust the
calcium in salt water aquariums. Would this also work for keeving?
Claude
Andrew Lea
>
> I can buy Calcium Chloride 33% solution from a cheesemaking supply
> store on the internet. I gather then that 100 ml of this solution
> would be 33 g of CaCl2. So, if I want 400 ppm in a 25 litre batch of
> juice, I need 10 g of CaCl2, which would be 30 ml of the solution. Is
> my calculation right?
> Claude
>
Looks OK to me. To the second part of your question I would not use
calcium hydroxide because it is not so readily soluble. Various calcium
based keeving salts have been used (in France, mainly) since the 19th
century, including curious boiled concoctions of lime and sugar to
improve solubility, but now that food grade calcium chloride is readily
available it has become the recommended form of addition in France for
many years now. Wherever the French lead with keeving, we can only follow!
Andrew
Vigneron Rowland
On Oct 22, 7:02 am, Andrew Lea <y...@cider.org.uk> wrote:
> But then maybe it only
> works if you're French :-)
Hill as a superstitious way ensuring my cider and perry trees will
blossom, but becoming French is something I wont do!
Andrew Lea
Just to explain my constant references to France in the context of
keeving, it is simply that they are way ahead of anyone else in this
area with their refrigerators, centrifuges and nitrogen bubblers. Not
only that, but their technical literature on the topic for amateurs and
small producers, including for instance the Kler Cidre instructions and
the booklet "Guide pratique de la fabrication du cidre" make it all seem
so easy and foolproof. Whereas for most of us it is still pretty magical
if it works at all!
Andrew
greg l.
"Last summer I had friends that went to France and brought me back a
Klercidre kit."
in France next year and might try to buy keeving supplies if I can.
Greg
Claude Jolicoeur
> Claude, can I ask what is the best place to buy such a kit? I will be
> in France next year and might try to buy keeving supplies if I can.
winter. Probably with a search you could find the discussions easily.
Klercidre is sold by
Laboratoires Standa
68 rue Robert Kaskoreff
14050 Caen
sta...@standa-fr.com
The kit I had is not the true Klercidre, but an equivalent, bought at
Espace Emeraude in Marolles, near Lisieux (Normandy).
There is also, from a recent thread:
http://www.moderndroguerie.eu/catalog/articles-cave-cidre-articles-laboratoire-c-150_158.html
Claude
Matt Eldridge
Can I ask, is this somewhere in Caen that you can visit and buy from direct or do you have to buy through the web/mail order. I am going to Caen in two weeks time and would be interested to find out if I can visit and buy.
Matt in Ely
> Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 20:33:08 -0700
> Subject: [Cider Workshop] Re: Keeving
> From: cj...@gmc.ulaval.ca
> To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Andrew Lea
you can visit? http://www.standa-fr.com/contactez-nous/ Or maybe they
can suggest a retailer in Caen? (The Klercidre is part of their Sanico
branded business)
Andrew
Martin Berkeley
Martin
Martin Berkeley
Ability Software Development Ltd
Sunny Cottage
Platterwell Lane
Pylle
Somerset
BA4 6SR
tel: 01749 830 205
mobile: 07966 00 8778
Jim
with some small amounts of Laxtons and am waiting for them to soften
somewhat before pressing. I can't source any PME so I'm hoping that
pressing and adding the juice of about 5kilos of crabapples may help
to add some natural pectins.
I did find food grade CaCl2 available in flake form from www.mistralni.co.uk
delivered at £6.99 per 100 gms.
It looks like I'll be pressing in about two weeks time, weather is
also a little too mild currently so I'm also hoping it'll get a good
deal colder. So much hoping, so many imponderables! Ah well,
Very helpful forum and such helpful discussions. I'll post and advise
on how I get on.
Jim
On Oct 29, 10:30 am, Martin Berkeley <m.berke...@ability-
> I collected from there last year, it is a modern factory with office
> block. They are not really set up for callers and prefer you to email
> or telephone in advance so that they can have the order ready. Getting
> in and out of Caen and finding them was the biggest problem which added
> two hours to our journey. I had them deliver this year which was much
> easier although it is expensive to arrange payment and the CaCl leaked
> in the post! But as Andrew says, keeving ain't easy!
>
> Martin
>
> On 29/10/2010 09:28, Andrew Lea wrote:
>
>
>
> > I believe it is just a factory site. But why not contact them to see
> >> > Claude
>
> >> > --
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> >> cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com.
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>
> >> --
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>
> --
nfcider
We took a chance during last week's early cold snap and are trying to
keeve 1700 litres in our dairy tank,the water jacket temp was a static
8Centigrade which I consider is ideal.The juice is from a handpicked
Somerset Bittersweet mix with a gravity of 1055,I've always followed
the Klercidre's format of adding the PME as soon as the juice is in
the tank cooling down,then 24 hours later adding the Calcium flake
ground up salts and then leaving the tank paddle stirring for half an
hour,to my son's amazement this time it all turned to "beads of
Tapioca" (his words) instantly.and we then pumped it all out into a
1500 and a 235 wide neck barrel to allow the "chapeau brun to form
hopefully by next Wed (12days),the temp has now risen to 11C but the
juice is dormant but crystal clear,my guess is the pectin gel has
solidified and dropped to the bottom of each tank,question should I
now rack off or still wait for it to start fermenting and let the
chapeau brun to naturally form on top as pe the Klercidre's chart? I
must admit although following the Klercidre's format of instruction
I've used a mixture of PME the last of Gary Awdey's Crystalzyme mixed
with a sample bottle of Rapidase FP Super supplied by S Black ,and the
Calcium salt flakes were ground up in our food processor,effectively
in the 1700lt of juice was 200ml of PME and 1kg of Calcium flake.
Any takers yet to share a 20 kg can of Rapidase as it's a bit too much
to have for one's self ?
Barry
>
> - Show quoted text -
Andrew Lea
done its work until the fermentation begins and the cap actually forms
and lifts. Remember, the key purpose is to remove yeast and nutrients
which I don't believe can be so effectively done if the cap is totally
submerged. For my part I have always waited until the cap has lifted.
However I have no evidence either way. [I would love to see a laboratory
project on this, also to explore the use of ion-exchange resin to
achieve the same effect without keeving].
However, I think it was Gary Awdey who was firmly of the opinion that it
was worth racking from what he paradoxically calls a 'bottom keeve'.
Also, bear in mind that the larger French producers would sparge
nitrogen bubbles at this stage to get the cap to lift, irrespective of
yeast action. Not sure if Gary is currently reading the list and will
be able to comment.
Re 20 kg Rapidase perhaps Vigo would like to take it on and split it?
I'm sure there is a UK market for small amounts of PME now.
Andrew
nfcider
If it's any use,the Homebrew Shop in Aldershot,(they have a
website)sell Brupacks Calcium Chloride flakes 200gm tubs for £2.50 vat
inclusive,they can also get1kg packs as well.
> with some small amounts of Laxtons and am waiting for them to soften
> somewhat before pressing. I can't source any PME so I'm hoping that
> pressing and adding the juice of about 5kilos of crabapples may help
> to add some natural pectins.
> I did find food grade CaCl2 available in flake form fromwww.mistralni.co.uk
> delivered at £6.99 per 100 gms.
>
> It looks like I'll be pressing in about two weeks time, weather is
> also a little too mild currently so I'm also hoping it'll get a good
> deal colder. So much hoping, so many imponderables! Ah well,
>
> Very helpful forum and such helpful discussions. I'll post and advise
> on how I get on.
>
> Jim
>
> On Oct 29, 10:30 am, Martin Berkeley <m.berke...@ability-
>
>
>
> software.co.uk> wrote:
> > I collected from there last year, it is a modern factory with office
> > block. They are not really set up for callers and prefer you to email
> > or telephone in advance so that they can have the order ready. Getting
> > in and out of Caen and finding them was the biggest problem which added
> > two hours to our journey. I had them deliver this year which was much
> > easier although it is expensive to arrange payment and the CaCl leaked
> > Martin
>
> > On 29/10/2010 09:28, Andrew Lea wrote:
>
> > > I believe it is just a factory site. But why not contact them to see
> > > if you can visit?http://www.standa-fr.com/contactez-nous/Ormaybe
> > > they can suggest a retailer in Caen? (The Klercidre is part of their
> > > Sanico branded business)
>
> > > Andrew
>
> > > On 29/10/2010 08:30, Matt Eldridge wrote:
> > >> Claude,
> > >> Can I ask, is this somewhere in Caen that you can visit and buy from
> > >> direct or do you have to buy through the web/mail order. I am going to
> > >> Caen in two weeks time and would be interested to find out if I can
> > >> visit and buy.
>
> > >> Matt in Ely
>
> > >> > Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 20:33:08 -0700
> > >> > Subject: [Cider Workshop] Re:Keeving
> > >> > From: cj...@gmc.ulaval.ca
> > >> > To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
>
> > >> > greg l. wrote:
> > >> > > Claude, can I ask what is the best place to buy such a kit? I
> > >> will be
Vigneron Rowland
FloatClear. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8_nmTFX17k&feature=player_embedded
is this a similar process to keeving? could I use this as a pre-
keeving step?
Andrew Lea
No, because as far as I can see it's just simple nitrogen flotation and
there is no nutrient removal. The key principle of keeving is that
nutrients and an initial crop of yeast are absorbed onto the calcium
pectate gel, hence lowering the yeast-available-nitrogen (aka
free-amino-nitrogen) and thiamin levels. This means that the juice
ferments so slowly that by repeated racking it can be induced to 'stick'
thereby giving a naturally sweet cider. Sorry!
Martin Berkeley
Martin
Andrew Lea
big difference is that CO2 is very soluble in juice / wine / cider and
so you will tend to saturate the liquid with gas which may not be ideal
pre-fermentation (CO2 being toxic to yeast). On the other hand it is CO2
which the incipient fermentation produces and which raises the cap if
left to itself. I think there are positive issues about nitrogen forming
much smaller bubbles than CO2 when sparged through a porous stone
(wasn't that the basis of the Guinness widget in the can?). Worth a try
I'd say.
Andrew
--
nfcider
We followed your advice,and waited on saturday morning we could see
the 'hat' was forming a couple of inches below the surface ,yesterday
it had risen to the top of both vats,and by evening the lids were
lightly lifting,this morning the levels had dropped back an inch or so
but the brown crust had really firmed up and had slight cracks with
the odd CO2 bubble venting,so we racked it off and obtained around
1550 litres from about 1750 litres,John is worrying that we have
stripped too much nutrient out,as the cake was about 2" thick and
streaked with whitish pectin gel strips,I wondered if using 2
different enzymes mixed in the tank together made a difference,I feel
this is the best keeve we have done so far ,the clear juice
temperature is now at 12C.The most important thing I think is to get
the starting pressed juice temp down to 8C to allow the enzymes to
work and not have to compete against the yeasts.
Barry
On Oct 30, 6:48 am, Andrew Lea <y...@cider.org.uk> wrote:
> Personally, I don't know for sure because I have never done either. The
> big difference is that CO2 is very soluble in juice / wine / cider and
> so you will tend to saturate the liquid with gas which may not be ideal
> pre-fermentation (CO2 being toxic to yeast). On the other hand it is CO2
> which the incipient fermentation produces and which raises the cap if
> left to itself. I think there are positive issues about nitrogen forming
> much smaller bubbles than CO2 when sparged through a porous stone
> (wasn't that the basis of the Guinness widget in the can?). Worth a try
> I'd say.
>
> Andrew
>
> On 30/10/2010 07:34, Martin Berkeley wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Would the bubbling of CO2 through the juice at this stage have a
> > similar effect as bubbling nitrogen? CO2 being easier to get hold of in
> > small quantities.
>
> > Martin
>
> > On 29/10/2010 16:18, Andrew Lea wrote:
> >> That's a tough one Barry. My feeling is that the 'chapeau' will not
> >> have done its work until the fermentation begins and the cap actually
> >> forms and lifts. Remember, the key purpose is to remove yeast and
> >> nutrients which I don't believe can be so effectively done if the cap
> >> is totally submerged. For my part I have always waited until the cap
> >> has lifted. However I have no evidence either way. [I would love to
> >> see a laboratory project on this, also to explore the use of
> >>>>> Martin
>
> >>>>> On 29/10/2010 09:28, Andrew Lea wrote:
>
> >>>>>> I believe it is just a factory site. But why not contact them to see
> >>>>>> if you can visit?http://www.standa-fr.com/contactez-nous/Ormaybe
> >>>>>> they can suggest a retailer in Caen? (The Klercidre is part of their
> >>>>>> Sanico branded business)
>
> >>>>>> Andrew
>
> >>>>>> On 29/10/2010 08:30, Matt Eldridge wrote:
> >>>>>>> Claude,
> >>>>>>> Can I ask, is this somewhere in Caen that you can visit and buy from
> >>>>>>> direct or do you have to buy through the web/mail order. I am
> >>>>>>> going to
> >>>>>>> Caen in two weeks time and would be interested to find out if I can
> >>>>>>> visit and buy.
>
> >>>>>>> Matt in Ely
>
> >>>>>>>> Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 20:33:08 -0700
> >>>>>>>> Subject: [Cider Workshop] Re:Keeving
> >>>>>>>> From: cj...@gmc.ulaval.ca
> >>>>>>>> To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
>
> >>>>>>>> greg l. wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> Claude, can I ask what is the best place to buy such a kit? I
> >>>>>>> will be
Tim
shed has risen to 12C and there is a distinct fizzing coming from the
barrels, lets hope it gets colder in the next few weeks so I can try again.
Tim in Dorset
Andrew Lea
> Sounds good, I think my first two attempts have failed, temperature in the
> shed has risen to 12C and there is a distinct fizzing coming from the
> barrels, lets hope it gets colder in the next few weeks so I can try again.
Tim, is there any sign of a solid crust at all if you look inside the
barrels (are they vertical with lids that can be removed?)?
Andrew
--
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
Tim
keeve isn't it?
Tim
Andrew Lea
didn't add any enzyme (unlike Barry) so you are dependent on what is
there naturally. Maybe the apples were not suitable.
If there is serious white froth on top of the juice and no sign of a
cap, keeving has failed I'm afraid. If there are only a few bubbles a
cap may still form, perhaps.
Chapeau brun = success
Chapeau blanc = failure
In the latter case you just have to let the cider take its course as it
would have done originally. And you haven't really lost anything.
Andrew
Tim
when I am making Jam.
Tim
Andrew
Andrew Lea
Calcium. I think you would need quite a lot of added pectin to make a
difference (around 1% or so which is 2 kg in 220 litres!!). In hindsight
you could have macerated the apples (sit the pulp 24 hrs before
pressing) which helps to extract more pectin. But if you lack native
enzyme or the pH is too low it still won't help.
As I said before, keeving is based on science but still very much an art.
Andrew
Vicky
Vicky
Tim
24 hours before pulling down, there are brown bubbles/froth forming.
I have fitted airlock just in case it does get going, do not want a
repetition of the amazing exploding bottle at Hecks earlier, only been there
3 days and it sent glass flying for yards.
Tim
Andrew
Vicky
Gabe Cook
Hi everyone
Blaengawney
We find that some of our perry keeves naturally in cold weather but
haven't had that experience with the cider. When we do keeve our cider
we leave it for 10 days before racking off and care is needed not to
sink the chapeau. To test for a keeve you could carefully scoop out a
ladle of the chapeau and it should be gelatenous below the crust. It
maybe your fruit was from an old orchard low in nutrients as this
sometimes is beneficial for keeving.
Hope this helps.
Andy
Andrew Lea
Welcome along, Gabe. KB is generally regarded as a poor keever
traditionally, see the link to Fred Beech's "Maceration and Defecation
in Cider Making" at the bottom of this page
http://www.cider.org.uk/keeving.html
However, everybody's experience is different when it comes to this black
art! My feeling is like yours, rack it and see how it goes.
Natural keeving is quite frequent if the conditions are right - in 17th
/ 18th century cidermaking literature it was referred to as the 'flying
lees'. Very picturesque!