Headspace in tank after racking
Greg
I am ready to rack from six 1000L IBCs (different varietals) and blend
into a large SS tank. The tank's capacity is 8500L (and it is fully
sealable) and I will therefore, have significant headspace. Is it
enough to apply a good CO2 blanket over the cider and if I intend to
mature until May/June would I need to reapply this blanket and if so,
how often?
Also, will this interfere with any MLF?
Sorry for all silly questions but cider tastes pretty good even now
and I do not want to make a stupid mistake with this quantity. (This
is only my second season producing.)
Many thanks,
Greg
greg l.
more risk by "putting all your eggs in one basket". If it spoils you
lose the lot, not just one IBC. Couldn't you wait a bit longer till
you are ready to bottle or whatever? It is never recommended to have
such a big headspace. CO2 won't interfere with MLF.
Greg
Greg
The reasons that I want to rack off are :
1) Take off lees as fermented to dry in early January
2) Remove from plastic IBCs and into stainless as O2 will permeate the
plastic (as per Andrew's book).
3) Blend my 3 varieties together in a consistent fashion to allow them
to settle and mature together prior to bottling in June.
4) This is what I did on a smaller scale last season and it produced
an excellent cider.
I do take your point about "all eggs in one basket" but I am aiming at
a commercial operation in the future, so in order to make the product
commercially viable I will need to start scaling up now and understand
exactly how to do it. Yes, there is some risk but that will have to be
taken at some stage.
Thanks for advice on MLF. I know the headspace is not ideal but if I
saturate with CO2 surely this will drive out the O2 and minimise any
spoilage potential?
Greg
greg l.
into keeping all containers full. One container that helps is the
variable capacity stainless tank. If you are trying to scale up your
operation you will need some sort of variable capacity container. In
terms of point 2) I think the risk of oxidation in a full 1000L IBC is
less than with 2500 litres of headspace (ullage) in stainless. In
theory you could keep the ullage full of CO2 but in practise I think
it is hard to manage. However if you have done it before you could be
OK. I would keep it in the bigger container for as short a time as
possible.
Greg
Greg
Greg,
I think that your point is well made regarding which has the highest
potential risk of oxidisation. I suppose my biggest problem was that
this season I had the cider made before I purchased the tank...the
wrong way round. Next year, I can ensure that I make the two fit.
I may well take your advice on this one and hold off on maturing in
the big SS tank....though I could use it for blending as it has an
excellent mixing paddle.
Kind regards and thanks,
Greg
Andrew Lea
>
>
> In
> terms of point 2) I think the risk of oxidation in a full 1000L IBC is
> less than with 2500 litres of headspace (ullage) in stainless. In
> theory you could keep the ullage full of CO2 but in practise I think
> it is hard to manage. However if you have done it before you could be
> OK. I would keep it in the bigger container for as short a time as
> possible.
I think I tend to agree with Greg L.. If you follow that route, you
could just blend using the oversize tank and then return the blended
cider to the smaller tanks which you can keep topped up (and CO2
blanketed if you wish, as Rose Grant and others do). Received wisdom
from this list is that a few months in a large HDPE IBC is not
detrimental to cider through wall permeation, so long as it is properly
sealed otherwise. You also need to consider the increasing ullage which
will arise as you draw off the cider progressively for sale (it isn't
clear whether you intend say to have it all bottled off at one time or
what your retail pack is) and how you plan to cope with that. There are
flexible 1000L bag in box systems now available in the UK (are you in
the UK?) which are a good alternative to variable capacity SS and some
cidermakers are using them.
Andrew
--
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
http://www.cider.org.uk
Tom
Is co2 the 'worst' of three gases to use? . . . Nitrogen and argon the other two. If so why recommend filling the headspace with co2?
What reaction does co2 have with malic acid or cider for that matter?
Andrew Lea
>
> Is co2 the 'worst' of three gases to use? . . . Nitrogen and argon
> the other two. If so why recommend filling the headspace with co2?
CO2 differs from argon and nitrogen because it is also soluble in the
cider and (arguably) cider tastes better if it is just under saturation
with CO2 even if it is not detectably fizzy. So it prevents the loss of
natural CO2 which is there after the fermentation anyway. Nitrogen and
argon are just fine but they hardly dissolve (which may be a good thing,
depending). In some wineries I believe a mix of nitrogen and CO2 is used
to ensure the solubility of CO2 at the required predetermined
sub-saturation level. I think one of the practical reasons CO2 is used
by amateurs is because it is cheap and easy to get hold of at food
grade. The other gases may not be.
>
> What reaction does co2 have with malic acid or cider for that
> matter?
None. (If you mean chemical reaction under normal conditions).
Martin Berkeley
http://www.extension.iastate.edu/NR/rdonlyres/173729E4-C734-486A-AD16-778678B3E1CF/56374/useofinertgases1.pdf
with some good information on the merits of CO2 blanketing.
Martin
Greg
> I think I tend to agree with Greg L.. If you follow that route, you
> could just blend using the oversize tank and then return the blended
> cider to the smaller tanks which you can keep topped up (and CO2
> blanketed if you wish, as Rose Grant and others do).
will ensure consistency of product (that I believe is key), even if I
pump back into IBCs
> You also need to consider the increasing ullage which
> will arise as you draw off the cider progressively for sale (it isn't
> clear whether you intend say to have it all bottled off at one time or
> what your retail pack is) and how you plan to cope with that.
bottles), but this would involve transfer to IBCs anyway which further
reinforces Greg L's and your advice!
I am based in Co. Armagh N. Ireland. Our family have been gowing and
processing apples (mostly Bramley) for over 80 years, but this is our
first foray into cider. Our nascent brand is "Mac Ivors Armagh Cider"
and I want to build it on the principal of using 100% fresh-pressed
fruit from our own locality.
Greg
Greg
On Mar 15, 12:39 pm, Martin Berkeley <mar...@piltoncider.com> wrote:
> There is an interesting article athttp://www.extension.iastate.edu/NR/rdonlyres/173729E4-C734-486A-AD16...
>
Hi Martin,
Many thanks for that article. Very interesting and full of useful
tips. Basically it says nnot to rely on CO2 providing a permanent O2-
free blanket unless you have a relaible way of analysing with O2
meter.
Everyone's advice has been really helpful.
Greg
Greg
Guys,
All this O2 talk has raised another question in my mind. I remember
from Andrew's book that any blending of different ciders should be
done before maturation. I seem to remember that any dilution with H2O
to reduce ABV should be done at this point. I read that tap water has
0.05% free O2 in it. Is this a risk as cider matures?
If I am doing any diluting, should I leave this to just before
bottling? Is tap water OK given the chlorine content. I did some
tastings adding tap water in one batch and filtered tap water in
another and I could not recognise any real difference...and I would
consider my palate to be pretty good at picking these things up.
Confused now...
Greg
Tim
set up I acquired from a pub cellar, it supplies 2lb pressure as fitted to
real ales via an aspirator, I used them for years when I ran the local pub
with good results.
Tim in Dorset
Hi Martin,
Greg
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Tim in Dorset
-----Original Message-----
From: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:cider-w...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Greg
Sent: 15 March 2011 14:16
To: Cider Workshop
Subject: [Cider Workshop] Re: Headspace in tank after racking
Guys,
Confused now...
Greg
--
Greg
Hi Tim,
Thanks for tip from your pub days. As for why dilute, well we Irish
are renowned for our capacity to drink huge amounts but at 7.3% the
feedback from our side was that it was too strong for the target
market. We will pull it back a few notches.....keep the masses happy.
Greg
Tim
disgusting cider that has been watered down after, after the fermentation
process you would not even know it was there.
Tim in Dorset
-----Original Message-----
From: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:cider-w...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Greg
Sent: 15 March 2011 16:00
To: Cider Workshop
Subject: [Cider Workshop] Re: Headspace in tank after racking
--
Alexander Peckham
headspace issue. I have converter a lid for my tank (I can move in
from tank to tank) so that it can accommodate a valve, pressure
release valve and pressure gauge. I saturate the tank with CO2 via a
tasting valve at the bottom and then connect a CO2 supply to the tank
at the top. This is kept in place and a positive CO2 pressure is
maintained (I set the regulator at 15psi). When I take cider out the
CO2 pressure is maintained. I have not had any issue so far. of
course the cider does become over saturate with CO2 but at ambient
temperature I have not found this to be a problem. I suspect that
the approach is similar to standard pub practice.
Carl LeClair
Vessel.
The vessel has a dump valve for the lee's removal and as such I have a
varied
head-space that changes based on the dump schedule. The vessel also
has a
pressure relief valve set at 3 PSI so I have been able to maintain a 1
- 2 PSI of
constant Co2 pressure from holding tank over the period of this
winter. I haven't
noticed any saturation of Co2 in samples taken. I have had a very
slight film on
the surface ( spider web ). No off aroma's or flavors have developed.
The only
downside to this was my placement of unit to basement ( 56 F ) steady
temp's.
I may change to the garage so that it will be in colder temperatures
so that I may
have a quicker lee's drop from suspension in following years. I still
have a bit of
haze at this point after having started in late November. Hoping to be
able to bottle
by the end of April? May have to consider a fining agent at some point
however.
Regards,
Carl