bright tank cold crashing & carbonating times

[Garet Gemini]

Hi,
So Im tbinking of starting out with 3 fermenters (264 gallons each) and a single jacketed, chilled bright tank. The plan is to have the ciders in the fermenters get racked to the bright tank to cold crash then back to its originating tank. I'm just not sure how long I would have to leave it in there to crash it.
Secondly, I want to rack to the brigjt tank, chill it and use a CO2 stone to carbonate before kegging. Once again Im looking for a rough/ballpark figure of time in the bright tank.
Essentially, I think this rotating will work as long as the cider doesnt have to spend days crashing or carbonating because then Ill end ip with needing the tank for multiple batches at the same time.

Thanks,
Garrett

[Jez Howat]

Garret,

Are you brewing a beer or making cider? Not familiar with 'cold crashing' a cider...

Jez

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[Garet Gemini]

First off, I made a mistake on my quantity, its 620 gal per tank.

To be honest, Ive never done it. Ive spent years trying to keep the ferment long & slow, but to make it commercially it isnt practical to have it ferment for 40 weeks.
So now I have a test bottle going with what will be a faster ferment and I want to try to stop it at 1.010 Im hoping that the racking will slow it down a bit, and then (borrowing a move from brewers) cold crashing it will drop solids (including yeast & their nutrients) out of solution, then another racking. Then SO2 and sorbate and hopefully no more fermentation.
I just started a gallon to test with, once its sorbated I'll leave it out at room temp with a baggy to see if it inflates. But, i have no idea about large (huge to me) batch sizes affecting it.
If you have another idea, Im all ears. I dont wanna filter because (if memory serves) it req. .1 micron to filter yeast and I read someplace that a lot of flavor goes at that small too. Never tried it, but it made sense. Also Im kegging so cant bottle pasturize.
But if you have any OTHER ideas, I'm all ears. Haha.

Thanks,
Garrett

[Jez Howat]

Quite honestly if you want to speed it all up because 'it's not practical' then you are missing the point of creating a quality, craft product. It's the length of time that allows cider to develop its interesting character and the slow ferment will probably always be more desirable.

If what you are trying to make is a high quality cider, then try to work with the process and live with the timings. If you want to make commercial, mediocre stuff then you may be on the wrong forum...

I know that isn't help, but clarifying what you are trying to achieve will determine whether there can be help.

Jez



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[Claude Jolicoeur]

This cold crashing process is done on regular basis by some producers in Quebec. Actually, it is the main method for ice cider which has to be stabilized at a very high SG.
However, it is followed by either sterile filtration (more often) or pasteurization. Then and by sorbate addition and SO2 for insuring stability. Cold crashing by itself is not sufficient...
I am not sure you are right when you write: "cold crashing it will drop solids (including yeast & their nutrients) out of solution" - I'd say most of the yeast yes, but their nutrients, more doubtful... Some if it yes, i.e. the N that is in the yeast cell body, but any remaining N in solution in the cider would stay there.

Claude

[Andrew Lea]

Claude is quite right. This process is also used by some commercial
producers in Australia to obtain a naturally sweet cider.

But sterile filtration (or pasteurisation) is an essential adjunct. Cold
crashing may remove some yeast but it will not remove nutrient and the
remaining yeast cells will start fermenting again as soon as they get
the chance unless they are _totally_ removed. Sulphite and sorbate at
realistic levels cannot reliably prevent this.

Cider is not beer. In cider and wine _all_ sugars (fructose and glucose)
are totally fermentable as long as adequate nitrogenous nutrient is
present. In beer wort, much of the sugar is not fermentable once the
glucose has gone because it is in the form of higher maltose oligomers
which yeasts can only assimilate very poorly. So what works for beer
doesn't work for cider.

Andrew

On 09/06/2014 11:07, Claude Jolicoeur wrote:
> This cold crashing process is done on regular basis by some producers in
> Quebec. Actually, it is the main method for ice cider which has to be
> stabilized at a very high SG.
> However, it is followed by either sterile filtration (more often) or
> pasteurization. Then and by sorbate addition and SO2 for insuring
> stability. Cold crashing by itself is not sufficient...
> I am not sure you are right when you write: "cold crashing it will drop
> solids (including yeast & their nutrients) out of solution" - I'd say
> most of the yeast yes, but their nutrients, more doubtful... Some if it
> yes, i.e. the N that is in the yeast cell body, but any remaining N in
> solution in the cider would stay there.

--
near Oxford, UK
Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

[Garet Gemini]

Thank you both who had helpful & constructive answers.
I guess Im going to have to test which way is better tasting with my final product. Sounds like a time consuming and expensive test. Haha.

And UV pasteurizing doesnt kill yeast, right?

Off to google to investigate filtration.

Thanks,
Garrett

[Andrew Lea]

On 09/06/2014 18:11, Garet Gemini wrote:

>
> And UV pasteurizing doesnt kill yeast, right?

Right.

Andrew

[Dougal]

We bring our cider right down to around 2*C to stop fermentation, after racking.  We cross-flow filter and then blend.  At bottling, the cider is sterile filtered en route to the bottling plant.  The cooling / filtering allows us to get the residual sweetness we want so we don't have to use sugar.  We use some high-brix varieties so we can get 6% or so out of them and still be at, say, 1012 and these balance the more tannic varieties that we ferment to dryness.

 

Speaking to JezH's post, I would suggest that more development comes from taking time to bulk store cider than having long, slow fermentations.  Slow fermentations do give nice complexity but some of this may mature out and be less apparent in time.  The depth and layering that bulk storage gives is unmistakable.  Besides, we use cultured yeast for some of our blends (usually the sharper varieties) and even with a run of cold days, they are generally all done in a few weeks.  In fact, slowing them may cause problems and leave us with stinkiness to fix. 

[Alexander Peckham]

These discussion baffle me a little.

Firstly, I am struck by the power of the fermentation process. I did am experiment last year and sterile filtered some cider with residual sweetness and put it in a sterilised tank. There was enough contamination in the process for the cider to start to work within two weeks. I have chilled ferments down and they have not clarIfied and stopped working. They have remained murky and have kept fermenting slowly.

Secondly, my un-matured cider does not taste very good and I don't understand how stopping a ferment, filtering and bottling will yield a good drink? Is the maturation done in the bottle post stabilisation? Doesn't the stripping of the cider change the maturation process?

Cheers, Alex

[Garet Gemini]

I am by no means an expert, I only started researching this today after Claude and Andrew put me on the right path. But what Dougal posted makes sense. The cross flow filtration stops (or severly hinders) the possibility of fermentation from starting again while it bulk ages. Once thats done it is steril filtered to be sure it doesnt restart. Inlike a home set up, I would imagine its a closed system so not much chance of re-inoculating.

Thanks Dougal.

I did some reading on wine forums about stripping away flavor compounds and there has not been a study done to prove one way or theother. The fact that people cant readily tell that its been filtered, like drinking flat soda, says to me that its ok to do. Im sure there will be those who disagree tho.

Garrett

[Headelf]

UV treatment is not pasteurization. It's similar to those who say add sulfur to the must.

UV is a light treatment. Pasteurization is a heat/time treatment. UV on cider has two Japanese studies linking it to a type of cancer. I am not aware of any negative studies on Louis process.

Pasteurization, as I understand it kills. UV as I understand it stops reproductive ability.

For integrity please do not refer to UV as pasteurization.

Tom
Elfsfarm

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[Jez Howat]

I would be the one to counter the 'filtration doesn't strip away flavour'.

By it's very nature, filtration strips something away. Sterile filtration (i.e. Such close filtration to strip out all yeast) must also strip out flavour and colour to a degree. I doubt there is any argument about this... It's more about whether it is more/less damaging than pasteurisation, which can leave a cooked note.

And yes, you can tell when ciders have been filtered that closely. Whether that is a bad thing... Well I leave that to your own judgement.

Jez

[Dougal]

I'm not sure if you are referring to my post or not, Alex, but if you are, you have misunderstood me.

We ferment by variety.  Some varieties are split into further batches and undergo fermentation using different yeasts.  Some batches are stopped early and some ferment to dryness.   The batches that are stopped early are racked, chilled and cross-flow filtered.  The batches are all bulk matured until we blend them up into our final blends.  Then the blends are bulk-matured until we are ready to bottle.  As a precaution, things are kept cool.  One the day of bottling, the blends are sterile filtered in line to the bottling plant.

I hope I am getting the gist of your writing, Alex.  Racking, chilling, fining (if necessary) and filtering are all part of the process of stopping fermentation.  We would be loathe to rely on anything less than all four processes.  Murky tells me your fermentation is active with carbonation keeping lees etc in suspension. Secondly, a number of months pass from us stopping fermentation (whether actively or naturally) and bottling.  Development in tank during maturation is very apparent.  We also bottle mature and development during this phase - even after sterile filtration - is apparent.  Last year, for example, our lighter, more tart blend came into its own quite noticeably about 12 weeks after bottling.  The more tannic blends 'arrived' about four weeks after that.  Since then, all have continued to evolve in bottle.

Your ciders from last year that I tasted were fairly high in acid (as were many other 2013 NZ ciders).  Many NZ ciders, I believe, were bottled and released far too early.  Taking that time maturating ciders - and tart ciders in particular - is important if the public is going to receive the final product well.  The alternative is to dump plenty of sugar, concentrate and fruit flavourings in and release six weeks after pressing!!!

[Garet Gemini]

Jaz you wrote "must also strip out flavor and color to a degree" the question is then is it to a degree that is noticable by most and is it disagreeable.

I return to the soda analogy; everyone in the soda drinking world can tell with a single sip that its flat or if the ice has melted and watered it down.

If this was the case with filtration then it would be obvious to most, if not all and eryone would know not to filter and there would be no debate.

This is obviously not the case. So if most people can't tell a difference or dont care about the difference between a filtered cider or unfiltered, im not going to try to convince them otherwise.

If thats your place in the world, good for you and good luck with that. Me? I want to hang out, laughing with my friends while we pound down vast quantities of cider, instead of sniffing and sipping and quietly remarking about its excellent character and flavor complexities.

But rest assured, if I do take this commercial, it will be the best dammed cider I can make within the parameters I have to work with.

Garrett

[Dougal]

I'm sure you are right, Jez.  However, I suspect that exploding bottles strip away reputation, profit and financial supporters!

[Dougal]

Pounding down vast quantities of cider may be where you are right now.  If so, I hardly think you will have need of cold crashing, cross-flow filtering, sterile filtering and so on.  If you do decide to go commercial, you can be very sure that a panel waiting to sniff and sip, and not-so-quietly remark about your cider's character and flavour complexities will await you at most retail outlets.  At that point, considering the effect of every possible cider making technique is important.  This subject is well worth the debate here.

[Garet Gemini]

"...rest assured they will not so quietly remark..." Hahaha.

Here in the States all tradition has fallen by the wayside so it's taking off again as phase 2 of the microbrew explosion. So to a lot of Americans this is the first time they'll be drinking (hard) cider. They honestly dont know how good it can be at its very best, but they seem to be enjoying the stuff theyre drinking.

Ray (or was it Dave) Davies from the Kknks said it best; Give the People What They Want.

But thats why Im here Dougas, to learn from others. When I first started making cider I used to go to the Franklin County Cider Days weekend, I dont think Ive talked to another cider maker in over a decade so new technology and techniques whereas ive been doing the same old thing over & over.

So today I read up on filtering a little bit. Tomorrow will be pasteurizing. Im certain that the experiment i was going to run would have failed so Im going to ferment to dryness and back-sweeten with a non-fermentable. My abv will be higher than I wanted but hopefully I can get an idea.

Garrett

[Jez Howat]

Dougal,

Ok, I am now puzzled what your aim for filtering is - if I didn't misread, you said you have 4 or so batches and filter 1 of them - then blend them together for maturation.

If you are stopping the cider early, or trying to remove yeast, then you undo that work when you blend. Surely.

I am not anti filtering to stop fermentation a early - or pasteurising to stop fermentation early. There is not a whole lot of other options (and cold crashing cider will only stop it momentarily).

But - yes. If you want a naturally sweet cider you either pasteurise or sterile filter in a clean room environment to prevent yeasts from getting back in... 

Currently, I back sweeten with Sucralose because I neither have time, energy or funds to buy something else.

All the best

Jez

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--

[Dougal]

Yes, you are misreading or I am not explaining well ...

 

Batches that are fermented to dryness are not chilled down because most of the yeast has died off (having little food source and high alcohol toxicity).  All pre-blend batches (both arrested and fully fermented) are racked and cross-flow filtered.  This means that when the batches are blended, there should be some residual sugar but little, if any, yeast.  As an added precaution, the blended cider is kept cold to inhibit any remaining yeast repopulating.  Everything is sterile filtered at time of bottling.

 

I hope this is clearer.

[Jez Howat]

Aha, that makes much more sense to me now:-)

I guess the message I would say to Garet (although it seems he has made up his mind) is that all these things depend on what you are working with.

I have a West Country cider with lots of tannic and little sharp apples. This would beat gentle filtering but I would try and steer clear if I can.

I also produce a sharp 'Eastern' style, which I could filter to calm down a bit. However, as I make enough to overlap each year now, I can blend the two seasons cider to liven up the old and calm down the new. I find that works really well. This also gives the new cider additional maturation time which calms it down over time.

My main driver is to be gentle with the cider - it's what produces my best results - but that at differ from across the pond.

And Garet - having recently seen over 200 litres consumed at a single festival, it's the quality of your cider that makes it quaffable or not:-)

All the best

Jez

[Garet Gemini]

That's what I was talking about was filtering or pasteurizing to stop the ferment short of dry.

Is there a better option than sucralose? 600x stronger than sugar so that will take some experimenting. ...not that I mind drinking mad quantities of cider, all in the name of research, of course.

I used to mix years too for a while. It made it so it wasnt like flipping a switch when the new stuff wasnt exactly like the old. Friends would always start off with "its not as good anymore" but love it and "its your best year ever" a month or two later. This just softened the transition..

Garrett

[Andrew Lea]

On 10/06/2014 13:49, Garet Gemini wrote:

>
> Is there a better option than sucralose? 600x stronger than sugar so
> that will take some experimenting. ...not that I mind drinking mad
> quantities of cider, all in the name of research, of course.

Correct me if I'm wrong someone, but I didn't think that _any_ synthetic
sweeteners are allowed in hard cider for sale in the US or Canada?

[Garet Gemini]

I hadn't heard of that before and just spent the last hour or so reading laws (what a mess) and still haven't seen that. Hopefully one of the commercial producers could chime in.
What makes it even more conveluted is the US government seems to treat cider as a subcatagory of wine. Essentially its a wine unless you meet these very strict guidelines where it then can be (hard) cider. BUT you can label your product as hard cider while not really meeting the strict guidelines, you just have topay the higher wine (or champagne, in the case of carbonation) tax.

Im going to keep looking though.

Garrett

[Garet Gemini]

Yeah, I think you may be right on that Andrew. Under wine laws, which as I said cider is a specialty catagory (hopefully not for long though) acceptable sugars in 24:10 are Sugar, Liquid Sugar, Liquid Invert Sugar.

This country makes it very hard to start a business!!

Thanks for the heads up!!

Garrett

[Alexander Peckham]

Dougal, the points I raise we not specifically aimed at your comments but were more general in nature.

The stop ferment using cooling, fine, filter etc story sounds so tempting - and you are clearly doing it.   I am just saying that in my own experiments things don't work out as neatly as the textbooks imply,

There are several key factors at play I think; firstly the lower alcohol levels in a cider make it much more vulnerable to re-fermention.  Secondly, (and this seems particularly true of high tannin cider juice), I find that it can be quite hard to clear a young cider.  If you have a cross flow at your disposal this helps but even then flow through the filter will be slow and won't do the filter elements any favours.  Certainly, if you stop ferment, clarify the cider and store at near 0C  then that would work, but the cost of doing this is high and involves technologies not available to most cider makers.

I have also found that temperature and maturation are linked.  You need the spring warm up to make the development to flavour we are looking for.  Apparently, these changes can occur post processing in the bottle?

I am surprised at you comment regarding 2013 acidity.  I our orchard 2013 was the lowest acid year to date.  Which blend do you try?

Alex

[Yann F.]

FWIW, Michelob Ultra light cider is sweetened with stevia.

[Garet Gemini]

Wow, check out the full ingredients list.

Ingredients: Hard Cider (water apple juice concentrate, dextrose), Water, Sucrose, Malic Acid, Natural Flavor, Stevia Leaf Sweetener, Sulphates

I doubt this is even classified as a hard cider to the tax man. More like a wine-cooler. In fact from the pictures ive seen on its labels, the ingredient list is the only place it says Hard Cider. (With Dextrose???)

Garrett

[Dougal]

Dear Alex

 

We are certainly very lucky to be in a strong grape wine region with lots of technologies at our disposal. 

 

Regarding 2013, when you said you had low acidity, are you talking TA or pH?  With 2013 being such a hot, dry year, I was surprised at the sharpness of the ciders I tried.  Ones that spring to mind, besides your Home Block and Moutere, were Zeffer's Slack Ma Girdle, Jones Rd and Paynters.  All are cideries taking their time and doing things well but quite acidic ciders were bottled in some cases.  Because most of these are dry, they have no place to hide and balance must be spot on.  I have no problem with a sharp cider; I just think it needs to be allowed to mellow somewhat before being offered to the public.  One of the above-mentioned was almost a law suit waiting to happen; I almost required throat surgery after trying a glass (and I bought a 750ml)!!! 

 

On Wednesday, June 11, 2014 8:20:29 AM UTC+12, Alexander Peckham wrote:

 Certainly, if you stop ferment, clarify the cider and store at near 0C  then that would work, but the cost of doing this is high and involves technologies not available to most cider makers.

I am surprised at you comment regarding 2013 acidity.  I our orchard 2013 was the lowest acid year to date.  Which blend do you try?

Alex