Adjusting mouthfeel in cider

[Jeffrey Lewis]

Hi everyone:

I have a cider that has been fermenting for five months, it is now dry (SG = 0) and has a nice smell and flavour.  TA is currently 6 and starting SG was around 52, so I anticipate the alcohol content to be around 6-7%. 

Everything seems OK chemically but the cider has a watery (thin?) mouthfeel. As if it has been diluted. 

Is mouthfeel the right way to describe this?  Is this something that may improve with aging? 

Any suggestions on how to improve this batch would be welcome!

[Andrew Lea]

Yes “mouthfeel” or “body” is the correct technical term. It sounds as if your cider lacks tannin. What varieties of apples did you use? Five months takes us back to September, so if you are in the UK these might have been early dessert apples which  typically make light thin fruity ciders. That won’t change with further ageing. Apple variety has a big impact on cider mouthfeel. 

Andrew

www.cider.org.uk

Sent from my iPhone

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[Jeffrey Lewis]

You are correct, Andrew. There were dessert apples and tannin levels are low. Would aging the cider in oak barrels have any effect on mouthfeel?
Jeff

[Andrew Lea]

You won’t get any tannin out of old oak barrels. They are just a source of malolactic bacteria which may help other aspects of the ageing process. Young barrels may give some tannin but predominantly they will give oaky flavours which don’t sit well in cider (IMHO but others may disagree). You can buy wine tannins to add but they are usually very disappointingly woody. Adding tannin to apples that don’t have them rarely works. Strong cold tea may be your best bet ;-)

Andrew

Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

> On 8 Feb 2018, at 11:23, Jeffrey Lewis <jeff.k...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> You are correct, Andrew. There were dessert apples and tannin levels are low. Would aging the cider in oak barrels have any effect on mouthfeel?
> Jeff
>

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[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le jeudi 8 février 2018 10:07:36 UTC-5, Andrew Lea a écrit :

Adding tannin to apples that don’t have them rarely works. Strong cold tea may be your best bet ;-)

Does adding tea to a dull cider really helps? Has anyone tried it?
In any case, this issue probably is the major reason why some cider makers started to add hops to cider.

Another option you could try Jeffrey on a future batch is to retain some of the natural sugars by preventing the fermentation to reach dryness.
Residual sugars do add some mouthfeel and aromas.
Claude

[Jeffrey Lewis]

Great advice and tips as usual! Thanks Andrew and Claude!

[Wes Cherry]

You could try sur-lee aging of your cider, though you have most likely racked already.  

The yeast cells breaking down will release mannoproteisns giving mouthfeel.  You will also pick up some other flavors that will give complexity.

If you have already racked, products such as Opti-white or Noblesse from ScottLab will accomplish the same thing.

Next time you could use a glycerol producing yeast for a fuller mouthfeel.  71b is one (though it can produce some aromas some don’t like - with some apples it makes aromas of Grandma’s pot pourrii).  There are other glycerol producing strains.

I’m not aware of any tannin additive products that work well with cider.

Despite being almost categorically opposed to adding non-pomme fruit to cider, I have had some that were co-fermented with blackcurrants that had a pleasant tannin profile.  

At TA 6, it’s probably a bit sharp as a dry cider.  Adding <10g/L sugar will give mouthfeel,  balance the acid and bring out fruitiness without being perceived as sweet.   You will need to pasteurize the cider now.   Or add sugar at serving.     Blackcurrant juice could be added now to sweeten, but will be more glaring in the flavor profile.

Carbonation will also lift things on the tongue.

-'//es Cherry

Dragon's Head Cider

Vashon Island, Wa US

www.dragonsheadcider.com

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[Andrew Lea]

Mouthfeel isn’t only tannin of course, though tannin gives persistence. Other unfermentable sugars like xylose, and polyols like sorbitol and glycerol, also contribute. Post fermentation, they can be mimicked by the addition of sugar, say up to an SG of 1.005 if you still want a cider which is dry to the taste.

The problem with adding sugar is that you then need to pasteurise the cider to stop it refermenting. This brings another level of complexity.

As a hobbyist though you might like to consider using xylitol. This is a non fermentable sugar alcohol which is widely available now in all the UK supermarkets as a sweetener which is suitable for diabetics. Weight for weight it has much the same impact as sugar, although a good deal more expensive, but importantly it also brings some body which the intense artificial sweeteners cannot do. It has the same laxative properties as sorbitol but at low SG values this is tolerable. It would be worth buying a small packet to see if it works for you. Just beware it is quite toxic to dogs because their metabolism of polyols is not the same as ours.

Andrew

Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

> On 8 Feb 2018, at 16:45, Jeffrey Lewis <jeff.k...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Great advice and tips as usual! Thanks Andrew and Claude!
>

[gloria bell]

I've added string English breakfast tea - about four bags in a cup or  two of hot water, steep, cool and then add to must.   I've never added it late in the game though. 

I should mention that the cider tasted like tea and I was a bit worried at first. That went away and it was a decent finish.  Not a perfect solution but something I wanted to try with non specific cider apples. 

Letting it not go to dryness with help. I also find that aging brings back the apple. I bulk age for a year and it makes a world of difference when trying to find flavour again.   I ferment mostly wild apples (until trees produce then I can better blend)

Hope that helps

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[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le jeudi 8 février 2018 13:05:21 UTC-5, gloria bell a écrit :

I've added string English breakfast tea - about four bags in a cup or  two of hot water, steep, cool and then add to must.

What was the volume of must in which you added that tea?
Claude

[Old Spot]

Don't discount the impacts on mouthfeel by in-bottle fermentation to add some carbonation. This is quite literally, 'mouthfeel'.  I have made numerous dessert-fruit based ciders with modest carbonation (6-9g/l of priming sugar) that are acceptable. Another option for next year based on fruit choices would be to source some crab apples. They are common, and usually add some tannic kick. Blended in at 10-20% usually does the trick. So no real need as a hobbyist for the hard-to-find cider-apple varieties so often touted here-abouts. Nice to have, but the lack thereof is not an excuse for bad cider.

[luis.ga...@gmail.com]

The hard thing is to find some crab apples that are suited for blending with dessert apples. Most of the crab apple I have found were too high in acid for that purpose...

Louis

[gloria bell]

Claude - it was 6 gallons.   

I basically steeped the tea until it was cool and it was quite concentrated when I added it to the juice. 

[gloria bell]

If you are in an area that has wild growing trees, perhaps go in search for some if you can. I ferment mostly wild apples and have found some beautifully tannic and not overly acidic ones. It's taken so time to find over a season, lots of walking and driving about. Hope that option is available for you!

I too have trouble finding/creating he right blend because I'm working with nature shares and not my own trees.

As aside, but, a web friend shared that adding a touch of apricot has improved the final flavour of a few of his ciders that were weak and flat. The trick is to add enough that it doesn't take like apricot but it likely adds some brightness. I will one day try this. Have the apricots (dried) just haven't completed the task yet. 

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[Tom Bugs]

In response to the subject of wild apples, I experimented a little with wildings/crabs this year - I wish I'd had time to do more tests.

There's a wild crab just up from me that last year made a great vodka infusion (less good this year it turns out) so I wanted to see what sort of cider it would make.
I did a pressing around Sept/Oct and the result was mouth puckering - but actually after a few months natural fermenting, while still super sharp, it has a really fruity flavour.
I'm not sure, but may sometime add the 2gals to a much larger regular cider and see what the result is.

What is perhaps interesting is that I gathered some more fruit from it later in the season and the fruit itself was much mellowed - I was very keen to press some of this late season fruit but unfortunately life got in the way.

[Dmitrii Tikhomirov]

Did anyone try to mature cider with dried pomegranate peel as a source of tannin?

[Andy]

Not an expert here, but I have added crabs pre-fermentation and after a year it finally tasted good.  I am the only person I know who enjoys uncarbonated cider, so I just bottle condition it all now.  That helps a lot, it really makes a huge difference.  I also did an experiment last year where I let the cider sit on the lees for different lengths of time - the longest being 4 months.  It made a difference, the 4-month was better than none.  I still have one 5-gallon batch that's been on the lees for 14 months now, not sure what I was thinking, but it's time to taste/bottle/toss it.