Saccharin?
Tim
Been in the shed since 07:15 this morning pumping juice and a million other jobs in between, I suddenly had a thought that maybe I could add Saccharin before fermentation begins which would leave the cider with a residual sweetness at the end, is the theory OK or will the saccharin be fermented out?
Tim in Dorset
Cider Workshop Website
My Website
Cornelius Traas
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Roy
> The saccharin will not ferment. Personally, I'd rather drink an industrial alcopop than a cider sweetened with saccharin.
> Con Traas
Roy.
Alan Stone
Have all people who are so vehment in protest against saccharin actually done blind tastings compared with sugar and other sweetners? I think many would be very surprised at the results, From my tasting experience the strongest distortion from natural seems to come from sugar - though I respect every one has personal taste. The number of traditional artisan makers who use sacharrin or other artificial sweetners in the southwest is probably as great or greater than those who don't. Of course we are all trying to achieve the Holy Grail of natural residual sweetness - but let's be honest about what farmhouse cider hs been for many generations.
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Cornelius Traas
Tim
Tim.
Hear, hear!
Roy.
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Tim
Ooh, back to “Us and Them” again, what is all this with the word “Artisan”, do you or do you not make Cider??? As soon as I see “Artisan Cider” it makes me cringe, it tells me instantly that the cider (glorified wine) producer is using a chemistry set to make his Jollop and is doing it more as a hobby than to earn a living.
I have not got the luxury of a pasteuriser in my sheds or shit loads of money as you all seem to have, I am doing what I can on an extremely meagre amount of money and would prefer to just sell REAL CIDER but the majority of the idiots out there that drink Cider want it sweet so how do I achieve that without adding sweetener ??????????????? Sucralose maybe????????????????????
Tim.
Raglan Cider Mill
I don’t know the answer to your question Tim but I agree with your sentiments. We want to make cider that is not only traditional, but is what people want to drink. If we don’t move with the times then many of us who have small cider-making businesses will fail. Tastes have changed and some people now want cider that sweeter than before, so any advice on how that can realistically be achieved would be welcomed.
Sally
Jez Howat
OK, and sorry this has to be public I am afraid.
Tim:
1. Watch the language
2. Do you have a problem with Julian Temperley of Burrow Hill – who to my mind either came up with the phrase ‘artisan’ or else is the number one user of the phrase. To my mind he is probably very close to being the number one cider producer in the world in this generation. BTW, I have no idea if he uses saccharin!
3. What is wrong with people making cider for a hobby, or as a commercial producer who doesn’t have to earn a living from it? For some it is a step towards becoming fully commercial. For others its because they like people enjoying their cider (or jollop?!) Either way, striving for a fully natural product is by no means a bad thing. Life as a commercial producer does, however, bring up compromises and problems that you need to work through... doesn’t mean everyone has to agree with your choices.
4. Yes, a lot of cider makers have used saccharin for a long time (100 years poss.), so it could be argued to be traditional. However, I would argue that if you choose to do so you are the one messing around with a chemistry set more than anyone trying to avoid it – whatever they call themselves.
By all means pursue saccharin or sucralose as an additive, but please do not bash anyone that has a problem with it – after all, the group has allowed you to bash others that don’t follow your preferred method of making cider and, to be frank, been very tolerant on occasion.
Lets at least allow other opinions to be heard please. After all, none of us has the licence on being right!
Jez
Sean B
How about conducting a straw poll? Joke.
Sean
JezH
sweeten your cider. Rather than favour one or the other I will list
them out. They are all valid in the UK and ought to be considered:
1. Saccharin or (probably more accurately) Aspartame. Has been used
for probably a century and is still used by a lot of cidermakers. Some
people are allergic to it, most that know their cider can tell its in
there. No real off flavours and it pretty much fermentation proof.
2. Sucralose. New addition to notice 162 and I reckon will gradually
replace the above. Used to sweeten your 0% sugar drinks (cos there is
not sugar) its probably better than aspartame. However, no long term
studies have been done on it and it is still 'messing about with
chemistry' to get the levels right. If I were to choose an artificial
way of sweetening, this is what I would go for. Goes under the monika
of Splenda if you cannot get it pure (though it has all sorts of muck
added).
3. Sugar. Probably the most natural of the additives but in my
experience doesn't work as well as others (if its not done right the
cider is muck!). Required pasteurisation to stabilise and ensure no
fermentation takes place.
4. Apple juice. I am reliably told that this is how Westons do it
(?!). This also requires pasteurisation. However, I have a suspicion
that of the 3 above this would give the best and most natural result.
That is all that you can do to sweeten cider in the UK and keep things
legal. Of course we are fogetting the 5th way to a sweet cider, which
is to make it sweet by keeving. This involves skill and probably a bit
of fortune too and is considered the pinnacle of the cidermaking
craft. If you want to know more I would consult Andrews book/website
but it is still have a fair bit to do with a chemistry set I am
afraid.
Apologies about the bluntness of this reply. Essentially, these are
the facts and there are cider makers who do all of the above. None is
essentially more right or wrong than the other, although if it were me
I would choose 4 or keeving (or 2 if nothing else). However, I can see
where Con is coming from - there is a difference between making what
the punter wants and making what you are proud of and sticking to it.
All the best
Jez
Wes Cherry
Michael Cobb
> or mannitol? Sorbitol, of course is naturally occurring in pears, and
> to a much lesser extent in apples. Are they legal cider additives in the
> UK or US?
>
> -'//es Cherry
> w...@dragonsheadcider.com
> Vashon WA, USA
notes 162
Listed are the following which would add sweetness
Apple juice (fresh or concentrate)
Pear juice (fresh or concentrate)
(Limited to 25 per cent if used in the making of cider)
Aspartame (E951)
Saccharin (and Na, K, and Ca salts) (E954)
Sucralose (E955)
Sugars and sugar syrups
for example, High fructose corn syrup/high fructose syrup
Fructose
Hydrolysed starch/hydrolysed starch syrup
Glucose
Liquid sugars
Sucrose
Sugar
Caramel - as a colourant but may add some sweetness!
but note:
colourings and other substances which may impart colour may only be used
to produce cider or perry in the colour range � straw/gold/golden brown.
Michael Cobb
Andrew Lea
> A few points:
>
> Saccharin <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saccharine> and Aspartame
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspartame> are different compounds.
>
Indeed. And aspartame is effectively unusable in cider except over a
very short time frame because it hydrolyses too quickly at the low pH of
cider.
>
> Another option is fructose. It's harder to get and more expensive, but
> it gives a "cleaner", less syrupy mouthfeel than regular sugar. I know
> of one local cidermaker who uses fructose and I rather like his ciders.
Fructose is fully fermentable so suffers from the same drawbacks as
sugar in that its use must be followed by pasteurisation.
I try hard not to be judgemental in my postings but I find it really
hard to believe that there are people out there who think that adding
saccharin is somehow more natural or has a more acceptable taste profile
than adding sugar? Saccharin was an abomination when farmhouse
cidermakers started to use it in the 1890's and it is still an
abomination today. Long usage does not confer respectability.
Andrew
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Rich Anderson
I pushed back, did not want the extra work and expense of pasteurizing and
after tasting country style UK cider did not care for the artificial
sweetener(s) used. Mind you the experience was great, loved the rustic style
of Watkins, enjoyed tours of Hecks, Burrow Hill and several others. Of
course the high light of the trip was meeting Dr. Lea, it's sort of a
pilgrimage for us in the US who have benefited from his advice over the
years.
But bone dry cider was good enough. Still is, but a some customers like
their ciders a bit sweeter.
After engineering a bath pasteurizer at a reasonable cost, we did trials
using various sweeteners with cane sugar, corn sugar, high fructose corn
sugar and concentrated juice. What I did find that is that pasteurization
seems to help blend the sweetener as well provide a shelf stable product
since we were having a problem with our unsweetened product, particularly in
the warm summer months where a small sludge formed in the bottom of the
bottle. It did not affect the taste but in my opinion suggested that our
product was less than professional. While the solution was to add SO2 prior
to bottling, one lab report came back suggesting that the levels were higher
than expected. Pasteurization solved this problem.
I have proposed sweetening trials over the years to a small State research
project to no avail mostly due to a lack of funding. So given this
background I will be interested in others comments regarding sweeteners.
JezH
Am glad to be corrected, so I ought to say that I know of producers who use aspartame. I have a relative who reacts very badly to saccharin.
You could always do what the various marketing bods say various producers do... which is to use sweet apples... but then I would have to come round and jump up and down on you for leading the punter astray. Which is the point I think Con was trying to make.
Jez
Claude Jolicoeur
taste a selection of English ciders. We don't find such ciders easily
around here (in Quebec) so this event is a great opportunity to taste
these on the wrong side of the pond...
Were available some ciders from Henney's, Hogan's, Oliver's, Ross on
Wye and Westons.
I wasn't able to taste all of them if the short lapse of time we had,
but my favorite (among those that I tasted) has been Henney's Vintage
Cider. And after reading this discussion on saccharin and other
sweeteners, I was wondering if someone knew if Henney's used some of
these sweeteners. For sure the cider felt at least off-dry, or maybe
semi-dry. And I didn't detect anything that felt like a chemical-
artificial sweetener.
The other thing I liked of Henney's is that it is the only one from
which I couldn't detect any sulfite taste (or aftertaste) - all the
others that I tried were over-sulfited in my opinion. But I have to
admit I am somehow oversensitive to sulfite.
Claude
Tim
Fire away with both Barrels Jez, I am ready and able to take the onslaught.
1. As I am from the borders of Dorset, Devon and Somerset my language would be based on Saxon.
2. No I do not have a problem with Julian Temperley and would not think of him as an artisan cider maker, commercial yes.
3. I have always produced a natural product but as I am trying to get a business running to keep the DHSS off my back and because I like it, I have to change my cider, sorry.
4. I have never claimed the use of Saccharin as being traditional, I merely asked a question and got blasted for doing so by Con, I notice he was not reprimanded.
I am getting ready now to go out and start another day of making my chemical jollop which I know will be racked with pain, my right foot is like a balloon from a permanently broken bone which has moved again, my back is killing me as I have spinal degeneration and 5 squashed discs, my guts are hurting as I have severe Diverticulitis, I had a rotten nights sleeps as I suffer from Myalgic Encephalitis/Chronic Fatigue Syndrome but I still have to go out and try to earn a living.
Ban me if you wish, I really don’t care anymore.
From: cider-w...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cider-w...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Jez Howat
Sent: 06 November 2011 21:30
To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [Cider Workshop] Saccharin?
OK, and sorry this has to be public I am afraid.
--
NEIL PHILLIPS
From: Tim <t...@marshwoodvalecider.com>
To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Monday, 7 November 2011, 6:43
JezH
JezH
Tim,
I dont think you will be being banned - banning is a decision taken by all admins and never by an individual. I am just asking that you allow others to have a differing point of view.
Sweetening is something I have considered but resisted. However when I do come to it I will be running an experiment with all methods of back sweetening to see what works best. And that is all I can advise you to do. Its something that I would want to decide for myself.
And I wouldnt go by
JezH
I wouldnt go by what is thought by some as traditional... Its all mucking about with your cider.
Jez
Andrew Lea
> To many parts of parts of the West Country Saccharin IS the taste of
> cider and any mid/small sized cider producer in the area has to
> seriously consider it if he or she has their commercial head on. I'd
> also argue that it is traditional down these parts if it's been used in
> for over 100 years. Check out the cider drinkers/visitors in certain
> west country barns, they love, I love it too, these places are the heart
> of cider making (traditionally) in the region.
If you can write that without any trace of irony or criticism then I
feel deeply sorry for you. 100 years of brainwashing has obviously had
the desired effect!!
Incredibly sad :-(
c...@theapplefarm.com
By all means use the saccharin, but put that information clearly on the
label, or if serving in a bar, tell each customer that it is artificially
sweetened.
Con Traas
Nick Bradstock
of 'sweeteners' in any food or drink, including cider, must be declared on
the label. I forget the ID of the Regulation but this has been in force
some years now.
The measure is aimed at 'intense sweeteners' but some say it also covers
sugars of any type.
This has led to statements on cider labels, at least, saying:
'Contains sugar and saccharin' - or sucralose or acesulfame-K or whatever.
Best wishes
Nick
-----Original Message-----
From: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:cider-w...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of c...@theapplefarm.com
Sent: 07 November 2011 9:21 AM
To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [Cider Workshop] Saccharin?
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NEIL PHILLIPS
From: Andrew Lea <y...@cider.org.uk>
To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Monday, 7 November 2011, 9:20
Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Saccharin?
To post to this group, send email to cider-w...@googlegroups.com.
Andrew Lea
>
>
> I wasn't able to taste all of them if the short lapse of time we had,
> but my favorite (among those that I tasted) has been Henney's Vintage
> Cider. And after reading this discussion on saccharin and other
> sweeteners, I was wondering if someone knew if Henney's used some of
> these sweeteners. For sure the cider felt at least off-dry, or maybe
> semi-dry. And I didn't detect anything that felt like a chemical-
> artificial sweetener.
I'm almost sure there is no saccharin in Henneys. His UK labels
specifically declare no artificial sweeteners (and in any case as Nick
says would require a declaration if they were present). Also, if it's a
legal US import it would not be permitted I think.
The sweetener will be sugar or possibly (in part) apple juice.
Dick Dunn
> On 07/11/2011 06:13, Claude Jolicoeur wrote:
> > sweeteners, I was wondering if someone knew if Henney's used some of
> > these sweeteners. For sure the cider felt at least off-dry, or maybe
> > semi-dry. And I didn't detect anything that felt like a chemical-
> > artificial sweetener.
>
> I'm almost sure there is no saccharin in Henneys. His UK labels
> specifically declare no artificial sweeteners (and in any case as Nick
> says would require a declaration if they were present). Also, if it's a
The neck label for Henney's in the US declares "sugar", no artificial
sweetener mentioned.
--
Dick Dunn rc...@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA