Pruning maiden trees to become standard trees, how?

[Thomas Fehige]

Hi all,

I planted three baby cider apple trees from England, they came as one-year-old unfeathered maidens on M25 rootstock. The tip is now about at 1.5 to 1.6 m. For the adult trees I need the lowest branching above 1.6 m, preferably 1.7 m or 1.8 m. (Otherwise the sheep will try to help with the pruning later on, and they'd make even more of a mess than me.)

Does it make sense to prune some 10 cm or more off the tip of the baby trees now, to encourage lengthwise growth, or should I leave them to their own devices until they have reached, say, 2m and start training my three or four main branches and the central stem then? Or ... ?

I'm not sure if that's a dummy question, but hereabouts nurseries are expected to sell young, bare roots standard trees with branching at about 1.8 m in place, three years after grafting, I think, and I can't find much on the web referring to the first steps from bare maiden towards full standard. It's mostly bush or half standards, and for the latter they recommend snipping at planting to a height above the desired branching.

Cheers -- Thomas

[Dougal]

I have two- and three-year trees on M9 rootstock.  I followed all the conventional wisdom which said to head back 450mm or so above where each scaffold was to be set.

I now work for a large (culinary) apple growing, packing and exporting outfit and had one of our orchard gurus have a look at my trees.  He pointed out a number of things:

1. The commercial guys are about getting their trees up.  Pretty much, they want to get close to terminal height as soon as possible.  They don't therefore head back.  This helps develop a thicker leader which means it can support fruit sooner.

2. To keep the tree growing upwards, they remove any laterals larger than a third of the thickness of the leader.  I had been keeping these as my scaffold branches and congratulating myself on how strong they were.  Of course, a lateral of the same (or close) thickness as the leader thinks its a leader too, so the tree acts like a multi-leader.  Commercial guys select and tie down their laterals about year three.

3. I have found most cider cultivars are basally dominant, meaning that the lower scaffold branches want to become leaders.  My experience is that they need tying down sooner than culinary cultivars so that the leader gets a chance to get ahead.

4. Keep apples off the trees (by removing the blossom) for the first three years.  This ensures energy goes into growing the tree and not the fruit. 

The bottom line is cider cultivars behave differently from culinary varieties and they have different characteristics between each other, too.  Knotted Kernal, for example, is very compact and upright while Yarlington Mill is quite leggy.  Looking at the two, I would leave KK to its devices but use closer spacings but give YM plenty of room.  Talk to people who grow cider trees if you can, particularly if they have the varieties you do.  

If I have confused you, then you are well on your way to becoming a cider apple grower!!!

[Thomas Fehige]

Thanks for the input.

Am Donnerstag, 13. März 2014 20:58:54 UTC+1 schrieb Dougal:

If I have confused you, then you are well on your way to becoming a cider apple grower!!!

Well, yes, you have. I can't ask cider apple growers other than in this group, for I'm in north-western Germany, where most old orchards have been destroyed in the sixties and seventies, and cidermaking has never been very popular around here, either. For the winter 2012/13 I asked the nearest nursery to prune my trees. They sent a horde of guys with ladders and secateurs, but that wasn't pruning, that was mutilation. So I'm back on my own, with some books, that confuse me, too. And as I said, here in Germany they only cover training trees from three years old onwards.

I planted maidens of Stoke Red, Yarlington Mill, Brown's Apple, Chisel Jersey and Ellis' Bitter. Got them by mail from Adam's Appletrees nursery in Devon, England. My aim is standard trees, the big ones, with free stems of at least 1.7 meters (5.5 ft). I'm afraid that modern bush or espalier practices wouldn't be much help. I hope I know what to do once the babies have reached two or two and a half meters and have grown some branches. I was simply surprised by the small little things that arrived in the mail.

Cheers -- Thomas

[Michael Cobb]

Thomas what you need is time and lots of it. How big are tree rings in
your area? If for example you have tree rings of 1mm then the tree will
increase in diameter by 2mm a year. To get a tall tree with branches you
need some strength in the trunk which needs thickness which in turn needs
time. At 2mm a year in 10 years you will have increased the diameter by
2cm, not a lot. If tree rings are wider the tree will grow faster but not
all varieties grow as fast as each other and growth varies with how good
the season is.

Michael Cobb

[Thomas Fehige]

Yes, I know it'll take time. What I don't know is if you'd prune the maidens right after planting or not.

Cheers -- Thomas

[Michael Cobb]

Thomas

I am not an expert in pruning but think about the trees and why pruning
takes place. Immediately on planting pruning might be to reduce stress
whilst roots develop to support the leaves, but do not prune the leader if
you want height. You may not need to prune at all if there is plenty of
water so that the tree does not get stressed. Later pruning is to provide
shape to the tree and light to the fruit. This, for cider fruit and in my
non expert opinion, is only necessary when branches are growing in the
wrong place or direction for example if they are going to cross over each
other. In these circumstances it is probalby best to prune whilst the
pieces to be removed are as small a possible - less damage and less wasted
energy. Other than that and perhaps removing flowers/fruit to encourage
growth then why prune, the extra leaf cover, if there is no water stress,
provides more energy to the growing trunk and branches.

Michael Cobb

[Tim]

Bung them in with a handful of bone meal under them, maiden whips usually
grow away quickly, have a look and prune if needed in about 3 Years time.

Tim in Dorset

--
--
Visit our website: http://www.ciderworkshop.com

You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Cider Workshop"
Google Group.
By joining and posting to the Cider Workshop, you have agreed to abide by
our rules, and principles. Please see
http://www.ciderworkshop.com/resources_principles.html

To post to this group, send email to cider-w...@googlegroups.com To
unsubscribe from this group, send email to
cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit http://groups.google.com/group/cider-workshop?hl=en

---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"Cider Workshop" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
email to cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Andrew Lea]

On 13/03/2014 15:59, Thomas Fehige wrote:
>
>
> Does it make sense to prune some 10 cm or more off the tip of the baby
> trees now, to encourage lengthwise growth, or should I leave them to
> their own devices until they have reached, say, 2m and start training my
> three or four main branches and the central stem then? Or ... ?

If you prune now you will just get buds breaking lower down which you
_don't_ want.

For standard trees on M25 you should wait till they get to 2 m + and
then do your first prune so that the buds break where you want them, at
around 1.8 m. In other words let them grow on this first year without
any pruning until this time next year. If any side shoots appear during
this year, rub them out.

As far as I know this is normal practice for standards.

Andrew


--
near Oxford, UK
Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

[Andrew Lea]

On 14/03/2014 11:04, Andrew Lea wrote:

>
> For standard trees on M25 you should wait till they get to 2 m + and
> then do your first prune so that the buds break where you want them, at
> around 1.8 m.

Just to be clear. Grow them on unpruned this year, but rub out any side
branches that appear during the growing season. Next winter make a
pruning cut at around 2 m so that in the following year side branches
will develop at 1.8 m.

[David Llewellyn]

I wouldn't call myself an expert on this either, and I welcome to be
corrected! But I have a feeling there is an argument for leaving
side-branches on the stem, as long as they are not directly competing with
the leader. If they are no more than about 1 third the diameter of the main
stem at their point of branching, and their angle is pretty wide, I think
they are good. Any side-branches or feathers help to strengthen and thicken
the main stem. They can be kept in check by shortening or removal as
appropriate, and once the main 3 or 4 branches of the permanent crown, at
1.8m or 2m, have have made a season's growth, any lower side-branches can be
removed.

Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong about this!

David Llewellyn
Tel: + 353 87 2843879
www.llewellynsorchard.ie
(previously 'fruitandvine.com')

-----Original Message-----
From: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:cider-w...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Andrew Lea
Sent: 14 March 2014 11:08
To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Pruning maiden trees to become standard trees,
how?

--
--
Visit our website: http://www.ciderworkshop.com

You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Cider Workshop"
Google Group.
By joining and posting to the Cider Workshop, you have agreed to abide by
our rules, and principles. Please see
http://www.ciderworkshop.com/resources_principles.html

To post to this group, send email to cider-w...@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit http://groups.google.com/group/cider-workshop?hl=en

---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"Cider Workshop" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
email to cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

[Andrew Lea]

I have heard this argument too about strengthening the stem (though
can't remember where!). It maybe doesn't much matter which way you do
it as regards side branches that develop on their own. I think the thing
is though that you don't want to tip the leader until it gets over 2 m,
if a standard is what you want. You don't want to specifically encourage
lower side branching in a standard surely, even temporarily? [I had Liz
Copas check what I wrote in my book and she didn't pull me up on it.
Though she did add that a budded standard tree can be pruned into a
centre leader form if you want to do that. But traditional standard
trees seem to be grown with a more natural style of crown].

The amount of feathering or natural side branching and their angles
(horizontal good, vertical bad) will also be dependent on variety of
course .....


Andrew

[Thomas Fehige]

Thanks all!

The majority vote seems to be "don't cut now". I'm fine with that.

I'm not very certain about tree and pruning vocabulary. Don't know what a "centre leader form" means. The most recommended shape for standard trees in Switzerland and in a lesser degree also in Germany seems to be the so-called Oeschberg-Schnitt, (Kassel University, Wikipedia -- both in German, sorry). The tree's main skeleton consists of four rather steep branches plus one centre spindle(?), leader(?), the latter being basically the continuation of the tree's trunk. The four branches in turn have fruit-bearing branches on the outside, the centre of the "cup" is filled by fruit-bearing branches off the centre leader(?). There is no second or third tier of main skeleton branches off the centre. Any that try to get there are bound down to become slow-growing fruit-bearing branches. At least that's the idea as far as I understood. Instead of having alternating fruit-bearing and wood-growing seasons they try to keep fruit bearing and wood-growing in different parts of the tree.

On English web sites I think I found the idea of four branches and no central stem. Not sure if that's the way to go with standard trees.

A quote from Helmut Palmer: "Obstbaumschnitt ist wie die Politik: Man muss die Oberen absägen damit die Unteren Licht bekommen"
 (Pruning fruit trees is like politics: You need to cut off those at the top so those at the bottom get some light.)

Cheers -- Thomas

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Thomas,
I also grow large size trees (there is a picture of my orchard in my book) but not for the same reasons... Here there may be over 1.5 meters of snow on the ground and low branches get ripped off when this snow melts. (this is not a place to grow dwarf trees!)
And for my part, I do not bother too much in training young trees. I mainly leave the strongest vertical shoot unpruned, and do leave some small side branches, that I trim later on (if they are still there).
My advise would be don't worry to much, and don't overdo it, after all, cutting parts of a young tree weakens it, while wou really want it as strong as possible. Hence I'd only cut what really needs it, and if in doubt, don't cut...
Claude

[Thomas Fehige]

Yes, that sounds plausible. After all, leaves on the feathers feed the root system quite as well as those on the stem, and the roots is where the most damage was done by replanting. Later on, when there's a balance between root system and crown, cutting back, say, two thirds of last season's upward growth will promote more vigorous growth near that cut than in pieces that are not or less cut back.

Anyway, I don't want to worry too much, I just have no idea yet how much "too much" would be ;)

BTW, I seem to remember that someplace in your book you write about the difference (sugar? flavour?) in fruit from the north vs. the south side of the same tree. That can easily be turned into an argument for diligent pruning in order to get sunlight into as much of the tree as possible, n'est-ce pas? While reading about pruning I've come across the word "Schattenfrüchte" (shadow fruit) meaning apples of minor quality that grow in the shade of other branches. I'm not sure if they meant only size, which would not matter to the cidermaker, or also sweetness, which would.

Another reason given by the specialists is getting stronger branches that can take the load of a good harvest.

Cheers -- Thomas

[woodcarver]

"Central leader" style pruning generally means you encourage one, strong central trunk and 3 to 4 "scaffolds" which grow from the leader. A scaffold is usually 4 branches all stemming from the leader (at wide crotch angles, not steep ones) at about the same height spaced fairly evenly around the leader at that height (North, South, East and West for instance). The vertical distance between scaffolds varies depending on several factors but the primary factor is usually what the size of the tree will be at maturity. Restricting lateral growth to the scaffolds (and spacing the scaffolds) allows the sun to reach more of the fruit. So, all the advice given so far is pointing toward a central leader style of pruning.

There is another style which used to be used very frequently (in the U.S. at least) for standard trees. Open-vase avoids a central leader in favor of 3 or four "trunks" all growing away from each other with nothing in the center. The hole in the center allows sunlight to penetrate into an otherwise dense canopy. If one were to go with an open-vase style I believe that you might want to head the trees at planting (though it could probably wait a year) to encourage several competing leaders, which you would then spread. The central leader seems to be more favored than the open vase style these days. I do think that open vase creates a more picturesque tree. Both styles can eventually end up with no branches at lower heights.

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le vendredi 14 mars 2014 11:56:27 UTC-4, Thomas Fehige a écrit :

BTW, I seem to remember that someplace in your book you write about the difference (sugar? flavour?) in fruit from the north vs. the south side of the same tree.

I don't remember writing this... However I did write that some varieties have better flavor for cider when grown in a more northern location, and Cortland was given as example for this. Could this be what you remember reading?

Claude

[Dougal]

Our orchard had both open vase and central leader but the open vase was all cut out.  Two things I remember about vase was they are more difficult to work; trying to pick the interior of the tree is hard work, particularly with a hydralada / cherry picker; and that the multi-leaders had to be wired from a central axis to support the outwards weight on older trees.

 

[Thomas Fehige]

Thank you woodcarver, that was a beautiful explanation. So "central leader style" is what in German is called "Pyramidenkrone" or "Kugelkrone" -- pyramid crown or spherical crown. And scaffolds in this context have nothing to do with espaliers. Phew. I think I'll be able to follow you folks a lot easier now.

Claude, sorry, I think I read it somewhere. I thought it was in your book, as it is the biggest one ;) Maybe it was here in the forum or in Andrew's book or somewhere else. But the question stands: In denser crowns you get more but smaller apples (and a stronger biennialism). Are these "shadow apples" of minor quality than the bigger "sunshine apples"? Or are they even better suited for cidermaking?

Cheers -- Thomas