Stoke Red

[David Pickering]

There have been a number of postings under “Good Apple Mixes” that relate specifically to Stoke Red.

>Stoke Red (bittersharp) seems to be something of a poor cousin to Kingston Black (also bittersharp) perhaps because of cropping or tree behaviour but it makes a great varietal and goes well in a blend.   Cheers - David   David Pickering - "Linden Lea" 681 Huntley Road, ORANGE NSW 2800

Wes Cherry <w...@dragonsheadcider.com>: May 24 07:31PM -0700  Agreed. And if you have any fire blight pressure Stoke Red, being a super late bloomer is off the table.     It’s also a poor cropper, but as David P suggests, chill hours probably matter. We had a cold winter 2 yrs ago and had a bumper crop of SR.   KB crops reliably and bigly every year for me. Zone 8a heavy clay acidic soils.   I personally like SR cider over KB, but it’s a more simple straightforward cider and more astringent. KB always has pencil shaving flavors for me.   And SR is a mess of a tree. Twiggy. The apples are the most beautiful though - glowing like hot red stoked coals. It’s highly susceptible to Anthracnose. late bloomers (SR, Brown Snout, Dabinett) seem to be more susceptible to Anthracnose. Perhaps it’s because the tree is still sleeping and can’t fight off the infection in the spring (?).   -'//es Cherry Dragon's Head Cider Vashon Island, Wa US www.dragonsheadcider.com

Dick Dunn <rc...@talisman.com>: May 24 10:17PM -0600  On Thu, May 24, 2018 at 07:31:07PM -0700, Wes Cherry wrote: > Agreed. And if you have any fire blight pressure Stoke Red, being a super late bloomer is off the table.     Not necessarily so. I've never had any FB trouble with my few SR, probably because it's so late, it's past the time when FB is a major problem here. My SR are just beginning to look like they're not dead. I expect bloom on SR in the first-second week of June. I don't know what the heck pollenizes them (I don't think they're self-fertile) but something does.   > It's also a poor cropper, but as David P suggests, chill hours probably matter. We had a cold winter 2 yrs ago and had a bumper crop of SR.   It's a poor cropper for me too, but chill hours aren't the factor here. :-)   > I personally like SR cider over KB, but it's a more simple straightforward cider and more astringent. KB always has pencil shaving flavors for me.   I wish I could produce more SR. I REALLY like the tannins, and they're substantial as it grows here. It makes an interesting cider here and there. Burrow Hill has done bottle conditioned SR and KB; we like them both a lot. But the SR is soooo dry... I assert that you could add moderate sugar to it and it would still taste bone dry. Love it.   > And SR is a mess of a tree. Twiggy...   Seconded. Mine are on semi-dwarf rootstock, so only a minor nuisance. But seeing them as pretty much full standards in the UK, I had to think about how you would even start to prune them. Seemed to me it would take an approach unique to that tree.   >...The apples are the most beautiful though - glowing like hot red stoked > coals...   Yeah. Makes me think of Dolgo...although Dolgo is ripe not much more than a month after SR blooms.   --  Dick Dunn  rc...@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA

Following up on a couple of points from Dick’s post:

>I expect bloom on
SR in the first-second week of June. I don't know what the heck pollenizes
them (I don't think they're self-fertile) but something does.
 

Late blossoming by Stoke Red is an issue for us in Australia as well. Verite and Tardive de la Sarthe are promising.

Likewise I’ve tried researching late bloom dates for non-cider apples in the hope of tracking a suitable pollinator. Haven’t got a perfect solution yet but Bess Pool looks like it might help. Each of these three is a different age to the Stoke Red trees so they’ll need a few more years growth and a few more different seasons to know what is normal.

> >And SR is a mess of a tree. Twiggy...
 
> Seconded. Mine are on semi-dwarf rootstock, so only a minor nuisance. But
seeing them as pretty much full standards in the UK, I had to think about
how you would even start to prune them. Seemed to me it would take an
approach unique to that tree.

And if it’s an acceptable language term I’d say “third-ed”.

All my cider variety collection were grafted onto MM106 so that tree differences could be ascribed to the scions. When Stoke Red on MM106 didn’t get any better behaved with age I tried some trees on MM111 for a bit more vigour and to a degree the trees seem like a more manageable orchard tree. So it was interesting to see Dick’s comment re seeing them as approx full standards in the UK.

Does anyone have experience of Stoke Red on something more vigorous than MM111?

And conversely - does anyone have experience of Stoke Red on dwarfing rootstocks?

Cheers - David

David Pickering - "Linden Lea" 681 Huntley Road, ORANGE NSW 2800

http://www.cideroz.com/
http://www.cideraustralia.org.au/

dav...@cideroz.com
mobile: 0427 271 477
home: 02 6365 5275

[woodcarver]

I have 60 SR on b.118 in their 4th leaf, maybe. I say maybe because they’re still struggling to leaf out and it’s 5/27. They were hit really hard with powdery mildew in their 2nd leaf. I couldn’t get it under control in the third leaf and then a cold winter hurt those PM infected buds.
Initially they took off but now they are willowy and kind of weak. No apples yet. I kno they are very late but I’m close to writing them off. Leaves are coming out but...

[Dick Dunn]

On Sun, May 27, 2018 at 06:34:50PM -0700, woodcarver wrote:
> I have 60 SR on b.118 in their 4th leaf, maybe. I say maybe because they're still struggling to leaf out and it's 5/27...

I don't know your location (other than Northern Hem) but my advice is don't
write off a Stoke Red until July 1.
Yes, seriously.
This year, mine are early...they're showing some blossoms as of yesterday.
Some years they don't blossom until 2nd week June.
They can be really, REALLY late to blossom in the New World.

> Initially they took off but now they are willowy and kind of weak...

That (willowy, or some call it twiggy) is also a characteristic of Stoke
Red, anywhere. Tedious to prune, to say the least.

I think of SR like Kingston Black--which is a PitA in its own right: We
would NEVER think of growing them if they didn't have exceptional merit in
the ciderhouse. But they do (in many but not all climates).

[woodcarver]

Thanks for the info. They are looking better though still not great.

[Wes Cherry]

I have stoke on g11 and m7.  The m7 seems to be twiggier, but they are also older trees by 3 years.  I recall reading that M7 has a reputation of making twiggy trees - can’t find the reference now with google.

Purchasing pollen is an option

http://www.firmanpollen.com/ for example.

You can hand apply it with a paintbrush or maybe a diy poofer using a turkey baster(?)

I had such a huge crop last year there’s only a few blossoms on all ~100 of my stoke red trees.

-'//es Cherry

Dragon's Head Cider

Vashon Island, Wa US

www.dragonsheadcider.com

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[Wes Cherry]

You could also save pollen from earlier blooming varieties instead of purchasing it

https://turkeysong.wordpress.com/2013/04/05/apple-breeding-part-2-doin-it-2/

-'//es Cherry

Dragon's Head Cider

Vashon Island, Wa US

www.dragonsheadcider.com