Fermentation vessel.

[Ian Mayer]

Dear all,

Hope you are all well.

Quick question, but what are the benefits of using a large 1000lt IBC as opposed to say multiple 220lt carboys? It feels like a fairly obvious question - i.e it allows for a more consistent cider across the 1000lts surely but on a practical level how do people find the two vessels in terms of ease of extraction of juice etc or other little niggles people may have noticed? I'm looking to produce c.2000 litres and wondering about splitting between an IBC and 220lts or simply go for all 220lts.

One other completely unrelated question: does anyone know an orchard which grows for sale Porters Perfection?

All the best - and apologies that this isn't the meatiest of questions for you to get your teeth stuck into!

Ian

Sent from my iPhone

[Nat West]

Hi Ian, I'm in the US, so maybe some fittings I mention won't work for you.

I have about 30 "blue oak" open-top HDPE barrels and a half-dozen 275 gallon IBCs. I am transitioning away from the barrels to all IBCs for a couple reasons. I plan to avoid stainless for fermenting for a good long time via using IBCs. I get them from a refurbisher nearby for $180 USD.

I never got my open-top barrels to successfully seal while still being able to fill, airlock and dispense them. The lids had a wee gap in the foam gasket, and to take samples, I have to open the entire lid, losing any CO2 blanket. Additionally, many of my barrels don't have excellent-fitting lids and metal rings so there is occasionally a poor physical/mechanical seal to compound matters.

I have seen open-top lids for 55 gallon barrels with 2" bungs in them. That's a great way to overcome the sampling/airlocking problem, but you're still stuck with (lack of) economies of scale and dispensing is less than ideal.

I have upgraded my IBCs to new 6" lids fitted with (2) 2" pipe-thread bungs. One bung opening has a hose fitted to a blowoff bucket for an airlock. When fermentation completes, I can remove the blow-off tube and jam in a rubber stopper and a bubbling airlock. The other bung comes off and gets a series of step-downs, ending on a CO2 quick-release so I can squirt in CO2 to purge the containers and keep up the CO2 blanket (this idea came from Rose Grant).

And having a dispense valve on the bottom makes for excellent draining. I use tri-clamp fittings in my cidermaking and can go from "camlock" which is standard on my Schutz IBCs to 2" pipe thread to 1.5" TC with a couple fittings.

I am able to use a regular CIP ball for cleaning the IBC again via the 2" bung hole in the lid, draining out the bottom.

I am experimenting with a plastic IBC liner. I don't know how well it will work or be worth the effort and cost ($30 USD).

-Nat West, Portland Oregon

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[Ian Mayer]

Nat, thank you very much indeed. Exactly the sort of nuances I was hoping to uncover - the sorts of nuisances which appear and become irritating only after you've bought the kit!

Thanks again and good luck with the liners - hope they come good.

Ian

Sent from my iPhone

[Jez Howat]

Hi Ian - I think a number of people who know such things in the UK are
either at Bath and West or making the most of the sun:-)

I cannot answer your Porters Perfection question - I do know one person who
has some but not msny and he doesn't sell them (well, he won't sell them to
me anyway:-)

I use a range of containers, starting with 30, 60, 120 and 220 blue HDPE
tubs. I also have 250 litre Spiedel tanks, 1100 litre IBC's and a couple of
1500 litre Rotoplas tanks. All of these serve a purpose and I can only
recommend setting up a similar kind of strategy for yourself.

The idea is simple, ferment in the large containers - its not just about
consistency; if you make a blend of cider through the best time to blend the
flavours is at the start of fermentation. So, I tend to place the juice into
the smaller containers to sulphite and as I get enough to fill a larger
container rack it into that. Ultimately, two of the blends end up in the
Rotoplas and another in an IBC.

Once fermentation is finished, you want to be racking back down into smaller
containers - easier to move, more convenient for bottling/bagging without
disturbing too much cider.

You will find that a good quality pump is essential so as not to leave too
much cider in the larger containers, but then that would apply to the 200
litres too.

One final point, be careful that the 220 litre containers seal well (I use
Vaseline to make sure of this). I wouldn't say that its a commom problem,
but it can happen.

Hope that adds to Nats response.

All the best

Jez

[Cheshire Matt]

I'll add my experience, but as you see, everyone has their own
preferences....

I've IBCs and blue open-top 220s and 30s. IBCs: hate them. Beggar to
clean, uneven shape which has to be managed with variety of twin
airlocks etc. On batch size, while 1000L might go for consistency,
that's 50% of your annual production that could go bad - not a sensible
business risk, and you only need something like the Antrim Malic Acid
thing (or similar tainting) to stuff you for the entire year. (The
Vulcan bomber is out of action this week for who knows how long with 2
engines blown up because someone forgot to remove the silica drying
agent from the intakes - sh#t can happen).

220s - love them. Dead easy to clean, not had a problem with the seals
(vaseline and boiling water on the upturned lid to make the "flump"
expand before fitting). I've also fitted 3/4" taps at the bottom of
each (although wish I'd gone 1" and a step down to the 3/4" pump tube,
as the ID is nearer 1/2" so sure I'm not getting max efficiency on the
pump). All samples taken by cracking the bottom value without needing
to lift the lid. Rack into a spare one; wash and rack into that - no
worrying about making up volumes. Bagging/bottling - one 220 goes into
7x 30L with 10L lees at the bottom of the 220.

Matt (not at or entered at the Bath & West because band is playing
couple of gigs over the weekend. Next year...)

[greg l.]

Larger volumes have a lower surface area/volume ratio so they oxidise
less easily. But like Matt says, large volumes can be risky, this is
why large operations are obsessive with filtering and stabilising. You
can also get liners for the 250L drums, which solves the problem of
getting a good seal. 2 of my linerbags developed tiny leaks this year,
co2 gets between the layers and a bubble forms which pushed cider out
the airlock.

Greg

[Jez Howat]

Greg,

That is very interesting - and at the risk of hijacking a thread a little I
have experienced the same with Jigsaw bag in boxes this year - especially
the 10 litre boxes. As they are multiple layers, Co2 gets in between the
layers and its impossible to vent them out without nicking a small hole in
the bag (not all the way through).

Has anyone else experienced this? For me, its only the 10 litre boxes and
its mainly a problem because the boxes are only just big enough for 10
litres. The 20 litre boxes have room for a little Co2 build up.

All the best

Jez

[Cheshire Matt]

I know other makers who prick the outer bag of BiBs. (And once went all
the way through...)

I've had a 10L BiB leak on me this year, but OK with the 20s. Wonder if
it's a particular batch?

[Ian Mayer]

Thanks all. Really appreciate these words of experience. Sincerely appreciated as always.

Hope your collective livers enjoyed B&W!

Ian

Sent from my iPhone

[Raglan Cider Mill]

Just catching up after hectic festival week.
We've had that problem before & occasionally have to prick the outer layer.
I've had long discussions with Jigsaw about the size of their boxes. Their
standard 10L boxes only hold something like 10.3L cider, which gives very
little room for error on filling & certainly no space for co2 build up.
I've ended up only using those for customers who want less than 10L. We
have found their 10L heavy duty boxes much better because they are larger so
more space. I got a new delivery of 20L boxes last week & noticed they have
changed the dimensions of those - hope we are not going to find they have
also got too small to do the job satisfactorily.
CiderSal

[Tim]

I can almost guarantee you will find faults with the new boxes, you will
still need to tape both ends and they are very tight if you have even a
slight expansion after filling.

Tim in Dorset

[Cheshire Matt]

The new 20L boxes are 36pint ones - I make that 20.5L.  When I last popped in to see Simon to collect some, he said they'd made the change to 36pint boxes precisely because people were complaining they couldn't fill them properly.  Both ends do still need to be taped, but I normally stand them vertical, and having the ability to loosely close them is quite useful. 

Not really had a problem with the new lot to be honest - plenty of space based on about 20.2kilos net weight. (Packaging weight is 0.72kg according to my new scales).  Just ordered another lot yesterday given how much went out the door last weekend.

[Jez Howat]

I like the new style 20 litre bag in box, though will only fill to 20 litres... I did have some leaky ones last year but not this year so far.

 

The 10 litre ones I agree are a nightmare. Not only do they allow no room for any Co2 development post sealing, the Co2 leaches into the second layer of plastic... but then this has been highlighted on here recently.

 

I tried some of their 3 litre ‘bags’ earlier this year – I couldn’t even get 3 litres in to it! I suspect you need some kind of special filling contraption to make that work but I simply used them as 2.5 litre bags... they are quite neat for that.

 

Jez