[Cider Workshop] frequin rouge

[greg l.]

Last year, (before I was aware of this group) I ordered some cider
apples for my orchard. The trees I ordered were Brown Snout, Bulmers
Norman, Frequin Rouge, Michelin and Jaunet. I plant trees to "trial"
them for vigour and reliability, so I was pretty much just guessing.
Jaunet turnad up its toes pretty quickly, there is strangely very
little info on the net about this French variety. Now I find Michelin
is regarded pretty poorly as a cider apple in this group.

I think Bulmer's Norman and Brown Snout are reasonably well regarded
but haven't heard any opinions about Frequin Rouge, any opinions about
any of these cultivars would be welcome.

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[jez....@btinternet.com]

Greg, I wouldn't say that Michelin was that poorly regarded - I met more than one Herefordshire producer last week who grew it.

It is widely regarded as a bulk cider apple. A mild bittersweet which, whilst not having vintage qualities, is still going to add some tannin - and from what I have seen of it its a prolific producer.

I planted a Hang Down last year for the same kind of result (although I liked the idea of protecting a variety that was dying out).

Besides the tricky Kingston Black, and a few others, I reckon for most people vintage quality is rather subjective.

All the best

Jez
Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device

[greg l.]

Thanks, Jez. prolific producer sounds pretty good. I guess for any
tree to keep being propogated it has to have some good qualities.

Another problem we have here in Australia is getting trees that are
not true to name. It seems from the cider workshop site that the trees
of sweet alford here are not correctly named. I have a "sweet alford"
which produces very well so the name isn't all that important. I am
very suspicious about my Bramleys tree, it doesn't seem at all right.

[Andrew Lea]

I have no knowledge of Frequin Rouge and it is not on the Marcher Apple
Network CD. Bore and Fleckinger show Frequin Rouge Petit as a
bittersweet of unknown origin in Brittany and "many distinct varieties
are known under the same name". I think David Pickering may have some
more info on the Australian situation with this one.

Just to pick up Greg's point about Michelin, its value depends on whom
you're talking to. A mainstream industrial cider maker will value it for
its reliable orcharding performance and yield, and its undistinguished
mild bittersweet juice. A craft cider maker will rate it less highly due
to its fast fermentation and lack of 'vintage quality' which as Jez says
is of course a subjective term. Horses for courses. John Barker also
recently pointed out that the Michelin we know in the UK now and is
widely grown here is *not* the same as the apple of the same name grown
in France nor indeed of the type description in Hogg and Bull. So
somewhere along the line maybe way back in the 1920's there was a bud
sport or mis-labelling.

Mis-labelling in the nursery is known to be the reason why much Sweet
Alford (so-called) is not Sweet Alford but Le Bret - the story has been
well-rehearsed and is in Liz Copas's nook - A Somerset Pomona.

Bramley ID should not be too difficult to get confirmed or refuted. Any
fruitwise Pom should be able to advise you - it is so common here!

Andrew

greg l. wrote:
> Thanks, Jez. prolific producer sounds pretty good. I guess for any
> tree to keep being propogated it has to have some good qualities.
>
> Another problem we have here in Australia is getting trees that are
> not true to name. It seems from the cider workshop site that the trees
> of sweet alford here are not correctly named. I have a "sweet alford"
> which produces very well so the name isn't all that important. I am
> very suspicious about my Bramleys tree, it doesn't seem at all right.

[Dennis Bancroft]

>
> Bramley ID should not be too difficult to get confirmed or refuted. Any
> fruitwise Pom should be able to advise you - it is so common here!
 

Mmmm,
Shouldn't it be 'fruitwise pomme'?
(sorry, couldn't resist)
pip pip
D
>
>

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[Stephen Hayes]

...Or is this a reference to the Fruitwise Pomona (as in www.fruitwise.net and the related YouTube channel which could arguably be said to approximate to an on-line Pomona), a Pomona being a pictorial book of apples, as in Liz Copas' indispensable book 'A Somerset Pomona'

 

words......

[Claude Jolicoeur]

greg l. wrote:
> Last year, (before I was aware of this group) I ordered some cider
> apples for my orchard. The trees I ordered were Brown Snout, Bulmers
> Norman, Frequin Rouge, Michelin and Jaunet.

In N.America, there is a Frequin rouge that is being distributed and
grown by some amateurs. However, I don't know which one it is or even
if it is really a true French Frequin rouge... Some have said it is a
bittersharp while others said it was a bittersweet! There might be
more than one variety under this name. In any case I got some scion
wood that I will graft soon, so I will see in a few years.

For sure in France, there are many: Frequin rouge petit, F.R. de la
Guerche, F.R. de Domfront in addition to Frequin rouge without
anything added to the name... Which one do you have in Australia? Any
guess is good...

Here in Quebec, Bulmer's Norman is doing very well and is becoming one
of my favorites although is it not highly regarded in England. Here it
has proven very hardy, and a reliable and good cropper. I find the
apples very useful to blend with our standard varieties which are high
in acidity. It also adds a nice tannin to the blend.

Claude, in Quebec.

[greg l.]

Thanks for all the comments, it seems one difficulty with assessing
cultivars is the different performance in different climates. The tree
I grow as Bramleys does not like hot weather, the fruit gets sunburnt
and gets floury before it ripens. It would be hard for a pom to id
definitively because of the difference in our climates. For me trees
that can ripen a good crop in hot weather are best, hopefully michelin
can do that. pH tends to rise very quickly here so trees which can
hold their acidity are good.

[Andrew Lea]

greg l. wrote:
> Thanks for all the comments, it seems one difficulty with assessing
> cultivars is the different performance in different climates.

Very good point of course. Dick and I once knew someone who grew
Kingston Black in the Napa Valley of California and the cider he made
from it was quite unrecognisable as KB. It had no distinct varietal
character at all.

Claude seems to be a good example of the converse - in his cool Quebec
climate Cortland makes a most excellent cider whereas further south on
his continent it is so far as I can gather pretty indifferent.

As I simplistically understand it, Northern European cultivars of apples
need our adverse weather to struggle against to produce their finest
flavour (there are physiological reasons for this). Certainly for any
given apple cultivar, there are clear climatic zones where each seems to
give of their 'best'. Step outside those and you might be wasting your
time. Indeed, if you are in an area where wine grapes grow well, one
might wonder why you should bother with cider at all?!

Andrew

--
Wittenham Hill Cider Pages
www.cider.org.uk

[greg l.]

" Indeed, if you are in an area where wine grapes grow well, one
might wonder why you should bother with cider at all?! "

A good question! The answer for me lies in the intensive management
required for grapes - trellising, pruning, spraying, netting etc. Its
ok for a small area but large areas of grapes require a lot of
maintenance. In our climate apples are a lot easier because we don't
get scab or mildew to worry about, and I have good deep soil so don't
need to irrigate. Although my trees probably don't grow as well as in
England, they do quite well. If I expand my vineyard I am letting
myself in for a lot of work and expense, but I can expand my orchard
without much bother.Remember Granny smith and Pink Lady both come from
Australia.

For me the big advantage of grapes is the ease of frost protection, I
just spray small jet sprinklers down the rows. I don't protect my
apples and lose the crop about 1 year in 4.

Of course, I just love apple trees and cider.

[bigphill....@gmail.com]

Greg I. 

What area are you in?

It really surprises me to see Andrew Lea saying; 

"Indeed, if you are in an area where wine grapes grow well, one 
might wonder why you should bother with cider at all?!" 

I have read his book, and articles, plus other books he refers to.

I am in the process of ordering 20,000 cider apple trees, for 2019, 

then same for 2020/21. Most of the plantings will be at Stanthorpe Qld,
with some at Orange NSW, all on MM106.

varieties include;

Bittersweet;

Michelin

Somerset Redstreak

Yarlington Mill

Tremlitts Bitter

Dabinett

Clozette

Bittersharp;

Improved Foxwhelp

Kingston Black/Bramley

Sweet;

Reine des Hatives

Sweet Coppin

regards,
Phill