There is no Primary and Secondary Fermentation in Cider

[Andrew Lea]

On 11/11/2013 07:24, Cheshire Matt wrote:
> There isn't a concept of secondary fermentation in cider.

Too right. It really is time we knocked this one on the head. Did you
ever hear of winemakers talk of Primary and Secondary fermentation? Of
course not. Only brewers do. And cider is a fruit wine. It isn't a beer.

This is I'm afraid yet another example of the uncritical adoption of
Brewspeak by cidermakers. It is a valid concept in brewing, where the
distinction between Primary and Secondary fermentation has a real
biochemical meaning - that is, the point at which the easily assimilable
sugars (glucose and maltose) have been consumed by the yeast and the
hard-to-ferment sugars (maltotriose, maltotetrose) are all that's left.
At that point the yeast has to switch gear and slow right down because
the only sugars then available to it are much harder to ferment. (From
this incidentally we also get the concept of high and low attenuation
which again has no place in wine or cider, unless you are using glucose
syrups as fermentation adjuncts)

In wine and cider, all the fruit sugars - fructose and glucose, and
sucrose after inversion - are fully fermentable, hence the discontinuity
found in brewing beer does not arise. Hence to echo Matt again, there is
no concept of primary and secondary fermentation in cider. Let's stop
speaking as if there is.

Andrew

--
Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

[Ray Blockley]

I totally agree! I find it bizarre and confusing, but as most of the
folks I interact with know (seemingly) everything about how beer is
brewed - along with Joe Soap and his cousin - it will be a long and
rocky road as we keep challenging this cross-speak and mishmash of
terminology.

Ray

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[Cheshire Matt]

<in the style of the Holy Grail 'Knights who say Ni!'>
You just said Mash! But that's a brewing term! Arghh!!

[Headelf]

Gentlemen
It is not often I disagree with my betters or even my peers but I find I must and even add my penny's worth.

We make wine and cider (no beer) and always speak of a primary and secondary fermentation with both. The primary is typically in stainless and is relatively fast. The secondary is after racking and may be in oak or a different stainless vessel.

The secondary is much gentler and longer. It might only be the malo fermentation or it might be the scavenger yeast on the lees using the very last of fermentable sugars.

Observation indicates this very slow secondary is typically at full moon and more likely in March and April. Observation is based on escaping gas through water locks.

Could it just be surface or gas expansion? Certainly. But it and malo is called secondary fermentation, at least in this cider house.

Regards
Tom
Elfs Farm

Sent from my iPhone

[Ray Blockley]

I think more commonly referred to as aerobic & anaerobic but not Primary & Secondary?

Ray

[Andrew Lea]

On 11/11/2013 14:56, Headelf wrote:

>
> The secondary is much gentler and longer. It might only be the malo
> fermentation or it might be the scavenger yeast on the lees using the
> very last of fermentable sugars.

Oh yes I am aware that the malo-lactic fermentation is sometimes called
a 'secondary fermentation' by wine makers (though I think this usage is
now discouraged by all the wine schools). I am also aware that the first
few days of a cider fermentation can be quite turbulent especially if
wild yeasts and no sulphite is used; later on, things get quieter. To
that extent one might distinguish two phases (sometimes called aerobic
and anaerobic as Ray suggests).

But the type of thing I'm talking about is where people are arbitrarily
drawing a line after say 4 or 5 days of cider fermentation which they
call 'primary' and racking it into what they call 'secondary' simply
because that's what brewers do, without understanding that wine / cider
is different from beer.

[Guy T]

Well - how about priming bottles with sugar, to get a bit of fizz?   Is that not a secondary fermentation?   I do it with most of my cider, and it seems a logical expression to me!!! 

Sorry to controversial! (batting down the hatches for the impending torrents of abuse!!!!!)

Guy

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[Ray Blockley]

Bottle Conditioning you mean? Again it may be called a "secondary fermentation" if you are adding extra sugars and/or extra yeast (champagne yeast starter culture); but if you don't add sugar but bottle at =<SG1.005 then it's not really a secondary fermentation but a continuation of *the* fermentation.

No abuse, we don't do that. :)

Ray

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[Ray Blockley]

And then again, adding that extra sugar is simply extending the first ferment isn't it...? Its still not a "Secondary Fermentation".

Ray

[Jez Howat]

Ray is absolutely correct, but this is a simple matter of getting terminology right... After all, making cider is really nothing like brewing!

Bottle conditioning is just that - conditioning the cider to become sparkling.

ML is that too - a bacterial conversion as opposed to an action of yeast.

We ought to be proud of the differences... Even if some ale les organisations take a little longer to get it:-)

Jez

[Fergal Connon]

What about Must, can that be added to the list too?

[Dick Dunn]

On Mon, Nov 11, 2013 at 03:05:06PM -0800, Fergal Connon wrote:
> What about Must, can that be added to the list too?

"Must" is fine (cider is wine), but "wort" is right out!
--
Dick Dunn rc...@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA

[Sean B]

So, put more concisely, is it simpler to say that their is no cease in fermentation between the 2 supposedly separate stages, just a dramatic slowing down before all the sugars have been converted?

Sean

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Andrew wrote:

It really is time we knocked this one on the head. Did you
ever hear of winemakers talk of Primary and Secondary fermentation? Of
course not. Only brewers do. And cider is a fruit wine. It isn't a beer.

Hummm...
The thing is that most of you in England do your first racking quite late, when the fermentation is almost complete.
If you did an early first racking, just after the more turbulent (or foam forming) period is complete, i.e. when the SG is aroung 1.030, you would see a net difference in the fermentation speed, and I think it is quite correct to call this a secondary phase.

Now, maybe calling it secondary fermentation isn't the most correct, but secondary phase could be more appropriate. For my part, I never did beer, so I didn't get this from beer making... But I certainly see a net distinction between these 2 phases. Sure these 2 phases are for normal fermentation of sugars, and if this first racking isn't done early, then there won't be a point of transition between them, and in that case I could agree there is no point really in separating the fermentation in 2 phases...

Claude

[Jez Howat]

Claude,

If we are to talk of the fermentation process as 'phases' then i suspect we could get at much more than just 2!

I can easily spot 3 - initial frothy ferment followed by slower, longer fermentation and finally an MLF, which is more conversion than fermentation but then who is counting:-)

If I wanted to get all Andrew on you, then the succession of wild yeasts acting on the juice during fermentation could all have their own phases...

I prefer to keep it simple. It is just the one fermentation, albeit different stages of it, followed by racking and maturing (and clearing). Nice, easy and quite specifically cider/perry.

All the best

Jez

[Claude Jolicoeur]

JezH wrote:

Claude, If we are to talk of the fermentation process as 'phases' then i suspect we could get at much more than just 2!

You are absolutely right, and in the book I describe 6 phases...
- Establishment of the yeast population
- Turbulent phase
- Secondary phase
- MLF
- Maturation and clearing
- In bottle refermentation

The main point is that like to make a distinction between the turbulent phase where foam is produced, and the slower one after the first racking. And yes, it is just one fermentation, but cutting it in phases permits to explain that different phenomenoms happen during each.
Claude

[Jez Howat]

Ha ha. I guess I had better get your book Claude:-)

Come to think of it, when I can stop for breath I will put a link to it from the Workshop bookstore.

Jez

[Headelf]

In conversation people at times use the phrase " let me totally honest" which somehow lends itself to degrees which is absolutely incorrect. You either are or not. 

In commercial applications we do not (correct or not) always take the time to explain organic chemistry of the processes to all the staff. 

As Claude mentions there are stages during the process of converting whole ripe fruit into the nectar of the immortals. 

For my commercial purposes we will continue to have a primary and hopefully a secondary fermentation! 

Either way the task of quality control tasting will still be enjoyable, now that I am being totally honest ;-).

Regards

Tom 

Elfs Farm

Sent from my iPhone

[Jez Howat]

Trouble is Tom that being stubborn doesn't make it any more accurate or correct terminology.

You sure you are not brewing your cider too:-)

To a degree I jest.

Jez

[WV Mountaineer Jack]

If we think more like winemakers than beer brewers we can easily see that cider can have a secondary fermentation. The primary fermentation is of course due to the yeast starting and completing its entire action, then it can either undergo MLF as its secondary fermentation or not, winemakers refer to MLF as a secondary fermentation. I think a lot of people get confused when they rack, racking from primary to secondary fermentation vessel makes them think they are in a secondary fermentation phase, I have seen people post of tertiary vessels, maybe beer brewers count after the secondary vessel but nobody else seems to. Some folks think the primary fermentation stages count as primary or secondary but those are just phases of the primary. All this is confusing especially to total newbies. WVMJ