New barrels too "hot" for cider?

[Michael Figueroa]

Hello Ciderists,

I can attest much has been said regarding the use of oak barrels in cider: I've attempted to read nearly every thread in this forum which mentions "barrel". 

There remains one aspect on which I'd like to hear your opinions. 

I have been warned by a knowledgeable beer brewer that a new oak barrel will likely lead to ruin for the first batch produced in it. To hear them tell it, the barrel will impart a harsh toastiness & char. Their recommendation is to brew something else (an ale, perhaps?) in the barrel to mellow the effect.

Has anyone in this group used newly-manufactured oak barrels, and what has been your experience? 

Should I tell this alesman to stick to what he knows? :-)

Thank you for reading!

--

Mike Fig

Tacoma, WA 

[Andrew Lea]

On 12/09/2013 17:32, Michael Figueroa wrote:
>
>
> I have been warned by a knowledgeable beer brewer that a new oak barrel
> will likely lead to ruin for the first batch produced in it. To hear
> them tell it, the barrel will impart a harsh toastiness & char.

Oaked cider isn't nice IMHO. People have tried to convince me otherwise
and failed. Using new barrels or oak chips, toasted or otherwise, is a
way to turn good cider into bad as far as I'm concerned.

Cider aged in old wooden barrels is quite a different thing. There, no
oak flavours are transferred. The maturation is largely microbiological,
due to bacteria living in the pores of the wood.

Just my six penn'orth of prejudice, of course ;-)

Andrew

--
Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

[Michael Figueroa]

Thanks for opining, Andrew.

Yours is an opinion which I've heard before and I'm trying to reconcile it with some very drinkable barrel-fermented or barrel-aged ciders which I have enjoyed.

Can you clarify the distinction when you say "Cider aged in old wooden barrels is quite a different thing"? ...

1. Are you agreeing with my brewer friend that fresh wood barrels will flavor a cider badly; 
2. or are you saying a different type of wood other than oak is preferable?
   

And if the main benefit, other than nod-to-tradition, is helpful bacter could anyone say whether it is worth experimenting with this product:

• http://morebeer.com/products/wyeast-4007-liquid-malolactic-bacteria-125ml.html
  

Thank you lots Andrew!

[Andrew Lea]

On 13/09/2013 16:36, Michael Figueroa wrote:

> > Yours is an opinion which I've heard before and I'm trying to reconcile
> it with some very drinkable barrel-fermented or barrel-aged ciders which
> I have enjoyed.

Yes but they will have been matured or fermented in old wood not fresh.
There is a massive difference in the extractables.

>
> 1. Are you agreeing with my brewer friend that fresh wood barrels will
> flavor a cider badly;

Yes. Though others on this list think differently. But consider - do you
want your cider to taste like oaked Chardonnay or Rioja? Can it carry
those sorts of flavours? My answer is no.

> 2. or are you saying a different type of wood other than oak is preferable?

No wood is good wood for cider, if it's new. (IMHO)

>
> And if the main benefit, other than nod-to-tradition, is helpful bacter
> could anyone say whether it is worth experimenting with this product:
>

> * http://morebeer.com/products/wyeast-4007-liquid-malolactic-bacteria-125ml.html

Well quite a few people here have tried that or similar (including me).
The problem with what they call Leuconostoc oenos (actually should be
called Oenoccous oeni) is that it's a bit one dimensional. It chews up
malic acid and spits out lactic, and maybe a little diacetyl, and that's
all it does.

The bacteria that live (wild) in the pores of the wood are often
Lactobacilli. They have a much wider range of flavour modifying activity
as well as changing malic acid to lactic. Some of those flavours may
verge on the 'funky' e.g. old horse. If you live in the UK West Country,
you'll love 'em. Elsewhere, you may pull a face and tip 'em down the
drain. In any case you cannot easily buy the right sort of Lactobacilli
for wine and cider in culture form yet AFAIK.

This topic has been covered quite a lot here in recent years.

Honestly the only thing you can do is to try it. Then you will know. If
you like ciders aged in fresh oak, good for you!

[HEW]

New oak releases tannins from wood when exposed to alcohol. The cider will taste oakey. Once a barrel has been through several maturation processes with wine, whisky, beer, what have you, the oak flavor won't seep into the cider much. A good resource about the discussion of microbiological processes in old oak vs. new oak can be found in the book Wild Brews: Culture and Craftsmanship in the Belgian Tradition. 

Old barrels may do some interesting things to your cider with ageing. New barrels will overwhelm the cider with oakey flavors, I would imagine. I have not done any ageing of cider in oak, I'm just going by what I have read. 

[Andrew Lea]

On 13/09/2013 17:22, HEW wrote:
> New oak releases tannins from wood when exposed to alcohol. The cider
> will taste oakey.

True but the primary oaky flavours are not from the tannin. They're from
'oak lactones'.

[Michael Figueroa]

Great information, all - very helpful. 

Very fantastic group here!

--

Mike Fig

Tacoma, WA

[Peter Ellis]

On 13/09/2013 18:41, Michael Figueroa wrote:
> Great information, all - very helpful.
> Very fantastic group here!

Andrew is a gem. Proper information delivered so that even mugs like me
can understand it, in his inimitable style!

--
Peter Ellis

Porec Sales Office
Croatia Property Services

Selling in the new Tuscany!

Tel +385 (0) 92 247 5879
+385 (0) 91 400 3784

peter...@croatiapropertyservices.com
in...@croatiapropertyservices.com

http://www.croatiapropertyservices.com
http://croatiaproperty.proboards.com

[Mike Pearson]

I tried some "aged in oak whisky barrel" cider recently from one of the larger Cornish producers. It just tasted / was tainted with whisky. Would have been better cider without the process it went through. And it was £7 for 750ml. Don't understand why anyone would want cider to taste of any thing else but, well, cider. 

Anyone got a view on this? 

Also, for the hell of it, and under pressure from Ill informed (but now better informed) friends and on the thread of making "cider" (i use the term loosely) taste of, well, not cider, had a can of Kopperberg(???)  fruit the other day. It's rhibena, but not quite as nice, and based upon tap water prices, about 400 times more expensive.

Suppose my point is that If you're commercial make what sells, if you're not, make what you like, have a smaller market to sell to.

Mike Pearson

07826 065 253

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[Thomas Barnes]

On Friday, September 13, 2013 12:52:49 PM UTC-4, Mike wrote:

I tried some "aged in oak whisky barrel" cider recently from one of the larger Cornish producers. It just tasted / was tainted with whisky. Would have been better cider without the process it went through. And it was £7 for 750ml. Don't understand why anyone would want cider to taste of any thing else but, well, cider.

In the craft beer world, aging beer in barrels previously used for wine or spirits isn't uncommon. The Belgians have a centuries-old tradition of using wine barrels to age some of their sour beers, and American craft beer producers find that "bourbon barrel aged" beers sell well. Some of this is spilling over into the cider world, often with very bad results. Cider is much more delicate in flavor than a sour or strong beer, so the oak can really take over and spoil the effect. Likewise, too much distilled flavor in a cider can really clash badly.

I'm not as much of a cider purist as some folks on this list, since historically cider was aged in barrels, which implies that it could have had barrel flavor. In fact, one traditional American cider style (New England Cider) can get some of its distinct character from oaking/spirit infusion and can be delicious if done right. But, less is more. If you must oak or spike your cider, make sure the base cider will stand up to the treatment and make the oak and spirit notes subtle and complementary. Fresh untoasted barrels, or re-used barrels straight from the distillery or winery, will generally overwhelm a cider, making useless except to blend. Instead, use cubes, spirals or chips of oak - put into secondary in such a way that you can easily remove them and control contact time. To get distilled spirit character, infuse the wood with spirits before you put them into secondary, or just add a spike of spirits later on.

[richard marlborough]

don't know about the new ciders. chardonnay in new toasted oak is vile in my opinion. however i don't like unoaked chardonnay. maybe if you are spending £35 a bottle.

can this happen with cider? will anyone produce a 500ml bottle for £4.50?

cheers

rich

--

[Thomas Barnes]

On Saturday, September 14, 2013 4:50:28 PM UTC-4, richard marlborough wrote:

don't know about the new ciders. chardonnay in new toasted oak is vile in my opinion. however i don't like unoaked chardonnay. maybe if you are spending £35 a bottle.

can this happen with cider? will anyone produce a 500ml bottle for £4.50?

Short answer: Yes. And that's a good thing.

You might roll your eyes, but I've paid close to that for imported bottles of high-quality French or English cider, or bottles of ice cider from domestic artisanal producers. As to why it's a good thing, other than proving the maxim that "a fool and his money are soon parted," it helps to boost the reputations of premium producers and encourage further growth of the craft cider industry.

Cider is popular right now in the U.S., but not necessarily in a good way - there's an amazing amount of crap cider on to market, some of it promulgated by people who really should know better, as well as the usual money-grubbing suspects. It's important that "artisanal" ciders draw attention from wine and beer connoisseurs to help differentiate themselves from the "fizzy yellow swill" that infests the market and which is trying to pose as an upscale, "premium" product. Otherwise, cider in the U.S. will get the same bad reputation that ruined cider in the U.K.

So, while we might both share the opinion that oaking the hell out of a poor innocent cider is a bad thing, if it suits someone's tastes and they're willing to pay a premium for it, as long as the underlying product is an "honest cider," then I'm all for it.